VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1929-1932 1931 Died while running and now won't start

got a call from my friend about his 1931. this is one that i have assisted with for a few years. gentleman is NOT mechanically inclined. i have gone out to assist a few times. done a complete new exhaust (manifold back), complete tune-up, new points, condenser, plug wires. typically the car fires right up and runs strong.

about a month ago, he took the car out for a joy ride, according to him, he was cruising along around 45 miles an hour for about 10-15 minutes and the car died. would not restart. after about 20 minutes or so it fired back up and ran for a few minutes and then died. would not restart. had to call for a tow to get back home.

i went out this weekend to assess. took what i thought i would need to tune up and get it going. after about 3 hours still will not start. pulled plugs, cleaned, checked gap. put in new points, set the gap, put in new condenser, new coil. we have fuel to the carburetor, fuel pump is pumping strong. checked spark at the points and at the plugs, both are good strong !! actually pulled plugs and held them close to ground and watched the spark jump. it spins over strong, new battery fully charged.

only thing odd was that when trying to start there was fuel coming out of carb, dripping not running. i dropped the float bowl and checked the float and needle. both moved freely and set around 3/4" and the needle moved freely, dropped right out and went right back in. but still dumping fuel in the carb. we let it sit for a few, then tried to start with starting fluid, but still a no go. it spins strong but does not try to start, not even a hiccup or a burp. just spins.

i wonder if it is NOT getting fuel to the cylinders or flooding it out. but seems like it would fire up then drown out if flooding. I am a little lost at this point. what to do what to try next.

as a side note, he is about 2 hours away, and i can only venture there on saturdays to tinker. trying to assist a friend but can not spend every saturday there, got a ton to do at home, including rebuilding my 1929 :)

This is a puzzle with good spark and fuel. I seem to find more than my share of bad condensers but you have hot spark. Is the rotor still turning and pointing at the right spot? Is it old fuel in the vehicle?

It seems hard to believe the compression/valves changed since he was able to get it restarted.

Let us know what you find.

Dave

Boy is this one a head scratcher. Based on all the posts you have shared with us I know your high level of knowledge and competency working on these classics. I also appreciate your willingness to help others who are not as capable of keeping these classics running. I have my share of those clients.

So I think this is one of those “never seen this before” scenarios.

The real clue to me is that it will not try to run at all when you know there is spark and gas, even with starting fluid.

My suggestion is to take a good look at timing. Could it have jumped a tooth or two on the cam gear or the distributor drive? Have you watched to see if the valves are opening and closing when it is cranking?

If this were a Miata I would tell you to remove the oil fill cap and watch to see if the valves move when the engine is cranked. That is the clue if the timing belt failed. But this is much better than a Miata!

fuel is new, he typically drives it every few weeks.
spark was nice and crisp
when i put in the new points I also put in a new rotor and cap.
i could clearly see the spark when i opened the points by hand

thanks :) i am no professional, but do know enough to be dangerous

i did do a simple timing test by turning the distributor advanced then try to start, then retard and try to start. same scenario... crank crank crank

may have to rough set the timing from square one, but will need my hand crank as he does NOT have one !!

did not pull the valve cover, may need to do that see if they are moving, hoping no bent rods or valves :(

did test for compression and had around 60+ on all cylinders. not sure if engine has ever been rebuilt or not

My 31 was doing the same thing but different circumstances (long nap). In the end I re read Chipper's steps on non start and how he described the spark. I had spark that looked pretty good but it was not snapping. I replaced the new condenser with an old Delco and it ran great.

Dave

Here is a very detailed ignition test desciption from Chipper, that I have saved for future use: Igniton test by Chipper

Hello Bears,
I'm with Dave39MD on the condenser. Along time ago, driving along in the country, the engine died suddenly as if the key was shut off. No sputtering as if running out of fuel. Just a sudden quit. Broke down and had to leave on the side of the road. Came back with tune-up parts. Replaced all but condenser. No joy. Installed new condenser, fired up as if nothing had happened. I copied a description about the condenser.

Here it be: Instantaneously, when the points open (separate) current flow stops through the primary windings of the ignition coil. This causes the magnetic field to collapse around the coil. The condenser absorbs the energy and prevents arcing between the points each time they open. This condenser also aids in the rapid collapse of the magnetic field.
The line of flux in the magnetic field cut through the secondary windings of the ignition coil, creating a high voltage - high enough to jump the gaps between the rotor and the distributor cap terminals, and the electrodes at the base of the spark plug. Assuming that the engine is properly timed, the spark reaches the air-fuel mixture in the cylinder and combustion begins.

If the condenser aids in the rapid collapse of the coils magnetic field, it stands to reason that it contributes to a stronger arcing spark at the spark plugs. Low compression cylinders need all the best conditions they can get also. I think that a worn out condenser provides a weak or possibly no spark condition. Don't forget, if the failing condenser cannot keep the points from arcing, make sure to inspect the points. They work together.
Could there be something faulty at the key switch?

Yes Chipper is the Man... when I was there last time I had him on the phone and we went through this process :)

Lost Track of how many beers I owe both Chipper & JYD

Now for the really naive question. Will an engine run if you simply disconnect the condenser?

I agree that is not a long term solution. The points will not last very long due to the heavy arcing.

If the engine runs that would be an indicator that the condenser is a problem.

The fuel coming out of the carburetor is of concern to me. The engine will not burn a very rich mixture. Adding starting fluid may hurt not help. If the internal bowl vent gets plugged the float will not shut off the fuel flow. It is necessary to remove the carburetor from the manifold and push a wire into the small hole in the passage between float chamber and throat. If that proves to be open and still has gas overflowing check the needle/seat again.

Does it have a metal needle or one with plastic, aluminum or other light weight "needle"? It takes almost zero gum or varnish to stick those lightweights.

Have you tried fully opening throttle and trying to start it? That may help to lower the gas to air ratio and get it to run (likely not well) probably with a lot of black smoke out the tailpipe. It has worked for me to help diagnosing the problem.

If the condenser outer case is not grounded there will be a spark but likely not "hot" enough to ignite the fuel/air mixture. I am not aware of an engine running without a fully functioning condenser.

Thanks Chipper...

i did not pull the carb, as i did not have a spare gasket with me. did not think to hold throttle wide open to try and start. the fact that it was pumping fuel into the carb when we were trying to start it made me think the float was stuck open. it is a full metal needle. i though maybe a piece of debris was holding it open, but did not think of the vent tube.

i can swap out the condenser as well just to be safe

forgot a took a few picts of hte carb when there...

My 31’ did this exact thing. Turned out my float had a leak and the carb flooded over by dripping. The motor wouldn’t even fire. Pulled the float, put it in hot water to find the leak, then I soldered it up. Been fine ever since.

when i pulled the float there was no sign of fuel in it. i shook it and even tried to sink it and hold it under, no bubbles etc...

replace the carb with one you know works, if that works send the old one to Chip for a rebuild. if its not the carb pull the distributor and reset the timing.
while the distributor is out you can make sure the screw is very tight holding on the condenser. just thinking what I would probably try

Gerry,

I'd pull the ignition switch and check the terminals for any sign of arcing, blackening, or anything weird. Also check for intermittent shorting where the electro lock goes into the distributor.
I had BOTH of these problems at different times over the years while driving at highway speeds on my '32.

They both resulted in sudden and complete shut off the engine for no apparent reason.

Jiggling the ignition switch once helped me get home. The switch's contacts were pretty near fried.

Did you try and sink it in gas or water? You have to use gas as I’ve found a float even mostly filled with gas will float in water. I shook my own float and tried floating it (in water because I thought it safer) and couldn’t feel gas in it plus it floated. Put the carb back together and put it back in the car. Tried starting it, it fired then stalled and was dripping over. Took the carb apart a second time, replaced the float valve again, put it back together, same thing. I then contacted Jon at the carburetor shop who told me to put the float in very hot or boiling water and look for air bubbles. He told me the hot water changes the pressure inside the float and will force bubbles out if the float has leaks. Sure enough, I had bubbles. I drilled a small hole where I saw the bubbles and had a lot of gas come out. Soldered the hole and did the test again to find a few other leaks. Kept doing the process until no more bubbles. My car has run perfectly since. What I did find is I have to now choke my car a lot more than before to initially get it to fire, then quickly push the choke in. I believe the float was slowly sinking until it was just to rich to start. My car has never run as good as it does now. Jon also told me I was better off trying to repair my old float as the new ones are made in China. The floats tend to leak around the area where the tab that contacts the valve. This is from people bending the tab slightly to adjust the float level.

Just for more thought, i also had an intermittent running problem a while back. Car would die suddenly without any warning and then later progressed to when the spark control knob was moved after starting. My problem turned out to an intermittent short on the electrolock, I had great spark etc. when nothing was moving. Once I removed the electrolock, I found a broken lock washer at the end where it bolts up to the distributor. Replaced the lock washer and reassembled and have not had any issues since.