VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION General Discussions Accessory Turn Signals vs Judging Rules

How in the world should a correct accessory cost you points. If I have a 41 back-up light on my 41 and it doesn't light up when put in reverse, why should my failure to remember to flip the tab switch or have the bulb's element choose that second to fail, cause a point deduction? See where I'm going with this?

A year and model correct accessory of any kind and in any condition should not cost one points no matter the condition. While I have been pushing for points positive for nice correct accessories, I can't see, at the same time, where they should cost one points. That's totally unfair and illogical too. If they can't help they darn well shouldn't hurt. At least they should be a "wash" if nothing else. Mercy!

Simply because the rules are written is no excuse to assume they are written in stone. Somebody needs to think this matter through.

Charlie

what is the difference between factory vs dealer installed parts and accessories, seem that quite a few of these were dealer installed. and what if they were factory sanctioned, for some examples, I have a letter from the chevrolet zone to dealers informing them that when the supply of 1947 hood emblems were deleted they should install the 1948 emblems when making repairs. They also supplied kits so dealers could install later model heaters ect in earlier model cars so as to increase their sales of accessories and use up their supplies of these items, these updated kits are are listed in the factory parts books. one of my documented original 41s came with a 1940 dealer installed heater when it was delivered new. in fact I have a lengthy document issued around 1948-49 from the factory or zone that has a list of the various GM accessories that were used down through the years and were acceptable for use on other year and model cars. Also when the warranties expired on some of these accessories and the original supply was deleted the dealers were told to by their zone to use updated newer items such as clocks ect. So if I had some of this paper work in hand. if I showed my car showing that GM approved the use of the updated accessories how would this effect the judging. Also going by the safety factor on some of these accessories ie the non cancelling factory directional signal units such as used on the 40-41 models, what happens if I installed a safer canceling unit from a different year for the sake of safety.

Diz,

You make a darn good point. Something to consider, also.

Behave,

Charlie

I understand and support the concept of starting with x number of points and then deducting from that "perfect score" for any and all non-conformities listed in the judging rulebook. The rulebook must clearly define these terms, accessories, and items.

Judging adds a dimension of opinion by the person or people who is or are the judge or judges, and it is often emotional for many vehicle owners. Owners have worked hard to get their vehicle to the highest possible standard for themselves, and they naturally take great pride in that. Blowing a bundle on an original set of bumper guards or accessory sunvisor that took years to find comes with an expectation of benefit in judging, but in fairness it can't. If points were added for accessories, then the man with the deepest pockets would always win with point totals over the perfect score provided everything else is in order.

When a judged event and judge are entered into the mix, the spirit of judging should be to determine the way the vehicle falls into the clearly defined rules. What is allowed and not allowed must be clearly written out as part of the judging platform, or the judging may either become subjective, or viewed as subjective.

The gray areas should not exist, and in particular, the accessories. I have a Unity spotlight and Unity fog lights installed by the dealer when my 1951 GMC truck was sold new. They do not have the "GMC" logo cap on them even though some of these sold by dealers did have when new. They just say "UNITY". Are these correct or incorrect? I have not seen the judging rules but they should absolutely define if both or one or none of these are acceptable.

I love this hobby and that's why I am here. I like things in the tempo and spirit of the period in which they were made, but I'm not above making not-so-obvious changes to improve something such as handling with a sway bar, an overdrive transmission to get to the show on Dwight Eisenhower's Interstate Highway system without getting run down by some bozo, and turn signals.

We all have a passion about this or you wouldn't be reading this thread. If the rules state that only GM Accessory signals are acceptable, and they are installed properly, there should be no deduction of points.

Judging can change the tempo and fun quickly to an adversarial showdown and it's unfortunate, but whenever any level of subjectivity judgement enters the equation, blood pressures can quickly rise and the fights begin thereafter.

Remember why you play with old Chevies and what about this hobby you like and don't hang on too tightly to the expected judging accolades and you will live longer and enjoy things a lot more. If the judging rules are not followed, or the rules are not clear, then that is a horse of a different color and deserves a good debate and argument.

The accessory should be for the year specified in the parts book or other chevrolet literature and must be in operating condition just as any other part on the car.
As far as parts not for the particular year....it was common for Chevrolet to discontinue certain parts after a time and cover it with a later part.
Some examples are the 1948 hood emblem for a 1947. This was not done in production but the 1947 emblem was discontinued from parts in 1949 and the 1948 version was sold as a replacement. A 1947 never came from the factory with a 1948 emblem.
Some other examples are the 1951 top grill bar with the Chevrolet script was discontinued and the 1952 version with no script took its place.
1940 hub caps were discontinued and replaced with 1941-1948.
There are many substitutions like this .
These later subtitutions are not considered as how the car came from the factory and delivered by the dealer when new.
Accessories are the same. We installed 1949 left over heaters and radios in 1950 models. There was a color change but they are not correct because they were never listed in the parts book or accessory list for a 1950.

It's a pretty simple thing, do your home work and when in doubt, have your documentation in hand...And make sure you offer it! The judges will most likely will not ask...Remember, the rule book is the judging manual...Know it!!
In my younger days I participated in International food competition and I know the competition manual front and back...Should be no different here

CC,

We get it! It is not a question of understanding the stinkin judging manual. It is a question of whether if you have a 48 radio (say C-48 on the tag on the bottom of the radio) and it is properly installed. It is in pristine condition. When you go to on it on it does not play. Won't even get Rush. Now the judge, if he is conscientious, will note this fact and deduct a point or two. That is because the judge wants to favor the next car (all other things being equal) because the dang radio in it does play. Yep, turned that sucker on and right there Rush is telling us all about it.

Now that right there protects the judge from your animus when you see that he wins and you lose. Spliting hairs sure but the other fellow had our radio man here on the Chat go through his radio and checked it out. Put in a new OZ-4 and a new vibrator. Cost him a heap of cash for that tune up. Did too.

Now you got 999 points and the other fellow got 1000. He gets to do the long walk up to the stand and claim his nice trophy whilst you sit a fume. What I'm saying here is that even if the other fellow still had the radio blank in his dash he would have beat you.

At the very least, if a nice proper, correct accessory can't help you then it shouldn't hurt you either. Both of you should have gotten a half of the trophy. A flip of a coin could determine which of you got the top half. Wisdom of Solomon here. You know. Split the baby.

Just thought I'd clear this up a bit.

You're welcome.
Charlie

BTW: That stinkin Fulton will cost you points. Should be about 75 of them.

Sorry Charlie,not 75points...PS,I have never lost a competition I prepared to win...I have a lot of 48 GM accessories,they all are installed properly and operate properly,was never optional in my eyes...But that's me,very competitive..The Fulton yah,removal has been considered..Still there though

It was previously stated here on chat that:


I disagree. Whether we talk about accessories or standard items that come on every Chevrolet, like headlights or a horn, these items should work. All vehicles on the show field and during the Field Entrance Check are to be "judged" based on how that particular vehicle presents itself at that particular Judged Meet. For Example: IF a 1948 2 door Chevrolet has working lights, horn, wipers and the accessory radio and a different 1948 4 door Chevrolet has one burnt out headlight, the horn does not blow, the wipers don't wipe and the radio isn't wired up to work, it becomes obvious that the 1948 4 door gets points deducted for the light, horn, wipers and radio. This includes deductions for the standard items which come on every 1948 Chevrolet like a horn and also a deduction for the accessory radio.

I appreciate the spirited discussion on Judging in the VCCA. To begin with, the Judging Manual as published in 2011 is our current guide. It would be advantageous for all concerned to read the entire 2011 Judging Manual at least once. The entire VCCA Judging process and manual is scheduled to be totally reviewed beginning in a few weeks/months. The process will take quite some time to complete. In the VCCA, we try to do a complete review on a regular basis every "X" years. Because a review is comprehensive and time consuming, the 2016 Anniversary Meet in South Lake Tahoe will use the current 2011 Judging Manual.

dtm

Thanks Dave,what ever they be, the rules are the rules and if you don't agree,be involved in the change but additional accessories should not give you the edge...that's my two cents on this one.................

While you're reviewing the rules on judging. Please consider a few things, at least. They are:

a. If an accessory is pointless then make it so that the accessory does not cost points if installed. It should consider not there.

b. Things that came on every car, should work. Things that are accessories should work but not essential enough to cost points. To do otherwise is unfair and you know it.

c. Try to do something to elimate the competition between a "bottom Line" "Plain Jane" from having an advantage over a car that has a reasonable amount of accessories installed. there is too many occasions where the ugliest critter in the show wins simply because it is not worth driving in the first place. Just get from the house to the library.

I have given up trying to make any sense on the points plus issue for correct, rare, nicely installed, accessories. I can't figure out how to make up a list of points to be added. I suppose adding as many points that can be deducted should be added if fount to be correct and installed correctly. But that is too simple it seems. All I am saying is that if an accessory can cost you points then it should add the same amount. Bit too difficult to grasp, is it? As it is now it is best to de-accessorize your car before competition and that is silly.

Judging rules should be fair and logical. Presently they are illogical as to the treatment of those who love accessories from a basic heater to a spinner steering wheel, etc.

When you'll hang me please us a new rope. I wouldn't want the dang thing to break. Might cost me points

Charlie

Knowing what you know about point deductions, as written in the manual .... consider this.

When you are at Hershey, with your fistful of money, and you FINALLY see that special accessory that you have searched for, seemingly forever.

Think about the judging format, and how it functions, before you rid yourself of that fistful of money.

The accessory looks pristine, and you have the talent to do an A-1 installation, but the seller issues his disclaimer, telling you the accessory does not OPERATE.

Put your fistful of money back into your pocket, walk away, knowing you will now not have points taken away for an accessory that does not operate.

Knowing that, I feel better .... how about you, Charlie ?

"The gray areas should not exist, and in particular, the accessories. I have a Unity spotlight and Unity fog lights installed by the dealer when my 1951 GMC truck was sold new. They do not have the "GMC" logo cap on them even though some of these sold by dealers did have when new. They just say "UNITY". Are these correct or incorrect? I have not seen the judging rules but they should absolutely define if both or one or none of these are acceptable".

The Judging Manual states that ... for an accessory to be "authentic", the accessory must be listed in a GM calalog, GM sales brochure, GM literature etc. for that year and model vehicle. Owner has the responsibility to document the validity of that accessory for his specific vehicle.

Many dealers did install "aftermarket accessories.

Will the "Unity" name be listed in the GM literature ?

Bob, therein lies the pitfall. Let's take the spotlight for example:
Here's the '51 Accessory price list showing the spotlight: http://www.oldgmctrucks.com/page0143.html

And here's the spotlight detailed: http://www.oldgmctrucks.com/page0150.html

My point was (and there are no specific details about the trim piece on the top of the spotlight in factory literature) whether or not the light would to have to say "Chevrolet" or "GMC" on the top chrome tab, or, whether "UNITY" would be accepted in judging

This is a question and I can throw factory literature at this topic until the cows come home but none of it shows the detail on the label tab on the top of the light to tell what the tab says. So would the Unity light be a deduction because it does not say "Chevrolet" or "GMC" on the tab?

It never said Chevrolet on most GM Gide brand spot and fog lights....Also there are applications where Unity lights were in the Chevrolet catalog. Example there was a Unity fog lamp listed for 1937-1940 and Unity spot lights were the normal spot light for 1947-1954 trucks. Main thing is to do research and have documentqation for your accessories.

Very confusing at times...The 48 accessory manual shows a unity spotlight but if you look at a photo of a 48 Chevrolet dealer display you will see the Guide spotlight....

Chevrolet offered both in 1948

As you know, the documentation you have does not specify what should be "labeled" on the lamp, if anything.

Your documentation only shows a part number, but with no information, as to how to identify the lamp.

I have no idea, as to how the lamp on your vehicle can be positively associated with the info provided within your documentation.

Will the judges "assume" that the lamp and the documentation are a match? I have no answer, no first hand experience from me.

Being the head of judging, perhaps "toolman" will see these questions and provide insight.

Thinking you have a spotlight on your vehicle, has the "label issue" caused you a problem, when being judged?

The gent with the GMC has no pics, as I understand, just a written description, with a part number.

99 and 9/10th percent of the judges (may be 100%) would not know what is correct for a 1948.
Chevrolet 1948 parts book lists under accessory numbers
986170 Giude, 9862171 Unity, and 986172 Unity for 1948 passengers cars.The 986171 unity has a bulb and reflector. The other Unity and Guide were sealed beams but did not use the same sealed beam unit.

"99 and 9/10th percent of the judges (may be 100%) would not know what is correct for a 1948".

If your statement is accurate, and I will say that it is, then the entire idea concerning "proper point deductions" with accessories loses any credibility.

The guide 6002 is the correct directional switch...The problem is there is 2 different 6002 switches..Whoops

The weakest link in judging is the judges.
Why?
They are humans
No one person can know what is correct on thousands of different Chevrolet cars and truks made in the last 100 years.
I perhaps could judge a 1948 or a 1950 with fair accuracy but would be lost on a 1920 or a 1930.
Thats why the judging should be fun but not draw any blood.

Well, that's incorrect; I did post a photo link in the second link of my response. And like I said, I can throw literature at this until the cows come home but it will not clarify the badge on the light.

But put this more sharply into perspective; here's a photo - now what?

"The gent with the GMC has no pics, as I understand, just a written description, with a part number".

I should have stated "the gent with the GMC has no pics to positively identify the spotlight, as I understand, just a written description, with a part number and a non descript pic.".

Either way, the spotlight on his vehicle is not positively identified as the unit in the written text, with the pic.

Have points been deducted at previous judging events, for the spotlight ?

Guess one could hope a judge would accept the documentation.