VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION General Discussions Accessory Turn Signals vs Judging Rules

That's correct.

All the Best, Chip

Thanks Chip.

I see the thinking of VCCA judging, I hope.

A good explanation by DTM.

Hope to catch up with you soon, Chip.

Despite what two have already written as a response, that is not totally correct thinking. If there is any doubt consult page 47-48 of the VCCA Judging Manual, 2011 edition. That section exempts certain safety or mandated items from point deduction. However not all installations will be exempt from point deduction. In the case being discussed the manual lists under "Categories Exempt from Point Deductions" "Turn signals and lights on vehicles where GM did not offer them as standard equipment. Turn signals must be period correct for the era of manufacture." In addition the condition of the installed items is evaluated and can be subject to point deduction for fit and finish.

My advise to all who are concerned with the Judging Process and point deductions is to read the most current Judging Manual carefully. Manuals are available in paper and by electronic copy on the VCCA.org website.

........and after all that, it all depends on how that particular judge at that particular meet feels on that particular day.

After all the talk about judging, accessories, etc., I see a "plain jane" vehicle as the only choice, if one would choose to have their vehicle judged, in the first place.

Too much controversy.

Someone said "I'll just enjoy my car and drive it", and I tend to agree.

If you want turn signals on your car go to a Motorcycle Dealership and buy Blue tooth signals, they can be attached with no wiring and removed at any time. So your safe driving and no need to worry about points.

Good info.

I once met a VCCA member who owned an absolutely beautiful 1930's era Chevrolet. He did not want to install any genuine Chevrolet accessory on his vehicle because each accessory then would be subject to be judged at a national meet. His logic was that if he had zero accessories installed on his vehicle, there was less to go wrong and less to be judged. This may be an extreme position for this person to take, however when you decide to go thru the VCCA judging process, all accessories must be functional and installed correctly.
Although it is fun to see a vehicle on the judging field that is loaded with genuine Chevrolet accessories, just having more accessories does not mean that you will necessarily win in your class. I run tons of accessories on my 1940 Chevrolet because I love original accessories and I have more fun driving my car because of having these original accessories. One of the major goals of the VCCA judging process is to present your vehicle as accurately as possible to how it would have been originally produced.

dtm

That member you speak of was on a "point saver" mission.

All accessories must be correct for the vehicle, as well, correct?

You are correct bobg1951chevy

Here's the thing about the accessories that bugs me. While each car starts out with 1000 points, it can loose points owing to imperfect installed or non-working ones. Or, if not in perfect condition. Even it the accessory is period and year correct.

Then there is the plain Jane that gets no point deduction owing to the fact that the critter has none. No squealing heater defroster motor, no static on the radio because there is no stinkin radio, no bulb burnt out on the back-up light, no lack of good silvering on the spotlight reflector because there is no dang spot light, etc, etc. Not even some paint chip on the bottom of the 49-52 plain Jane because the cheaper models didn't come with that accessory. And, without this item the car looks incomplete and had a gapping hole at the rear wheel.

It seems logical to me that if an accessory can be subject to point deduction then by contrast it should be a plus for points if it is correct. Something like a graduated system of points added for rare items, like a spotlight, reel antenna, Batman tailpipe extension, compass, foot-scrapers, at the top of the most points list down to the more plenty full and more common basic radio or some such item. Now, see how logical that suggestion is? Perfect.

To not do so is unfair to those who have diligently searched for and sacrificed and withheld big time money for our wives much needed, life threatening medical operation(s) so that we could afford that special item to go on the vehicle. Every time my wife brings up that she wants to have her eyes fixed, I quickly calculate the cost of another accessory. I tell her to get a new pair of glasses... and to use the old frames.

Well, we all have our priorities, don't we. Accessories are cool as the younger generation will say.

Down with Plain Janes sans accessories walking away with the highly desirable trophies. My applause is limited to only a couple of claps. But I'm not being fair to them on account of the stinkin rules permitting such competition.

Whee! I'm glad we got that all cleared up.

Charlie

It is odd, when you think of it.

No "points reward" with the rare or nifty accessory ...... but the deductions are waiting for you, if that rare or nifty accessory isn't up to par.

If your going to really drive your vintage Chevy,I think it all starts with the things you need to tour in todays world...turn signals, heater and maybe radio, come to mind...all of which could be accessories...Only the start of what you may need to make your vintage Chevy complete "in your own eyes"...Never hurts to find the right one and install it properly...Never know when you may have it judged...An accessory that does not work ??? Don't install it!!!

Who would decide as to what is rare and how many points it is worth?
The idea is if you want to show your car and get an award you restore it as is stated "as delivered by dealer when new and has (parts) and accessories listed in Chevrolet literature for that year and model".
Its not all that difficult to do, and is and has been done by thousands of members.

You guys that have never had a car judged are getting carried away with wild thoughts.

Gene,

I think you may be missing the main point. It is this:

If an accessory can hurt (deducted points) then a correct, properly one should help (added points.) Otherwise there is incentive to never install an accessory and, it the car has one, to take it off.

While it may be difficult to establish an added point system for accessories, even something is better than the system we have now.

Today Plain Janes reign supreme. Do too!

If we want to keep the current system, which is overly favorably to Plain Janes, then all we are going to see, eventually, is their owners marching up to the podium to take all the trophies. That is close to the way it is right now.

This is not about or an attack on driving your car or touring. This is about the unfairness to those who make the sacrifice to build and have a car that has high public appeal. Imagine showing a youngster the short-wave capabilities of the 41 radio or the spinner wheel, et al.

The only ones who would support the current system are those who wouldn't give a wooden nickel for an accessory because it may cause them to lose a point or two.

Think about it. And, while we are at it, the way a car came has nothing to do with the logic here. Any dealer could slap on any accessory he thought would cause the car to be more appealing to the buying public. You, having worked for a dealer, know that. Do too!

Charlie

I think you are missing the point. Judging is not an accessory contest but a restoration contest.
Then there shold be another class. "who has the most accessories".
The winner in that class would be Ron Wade who's 1941 convertible has all the accessories offered in 1941.

I do not see or read any "wild thoughts" here, as stated.

Instead, I DO see written concerns that a guy with accessories is more vulnerable to points deductions, than the bare bones, "plain jane" . Is that "point deduction" concern a valid concern? Perhaps NOT.

As chef-chevy stated, if the accessory doesn't work, don't install it. Adding to his comment, if the accessory is not "period correct" or "year correct", don't install it, as well. Document the validity of the accessory item, and all should be A-OK, correct ?

Looking at the judging manual, it was printed in 2011.

No matter how "hot" the subject of judging may be to the VCCA members, the folks running the VCCA have not seen any need to update or modify the Judging Manual, from 2011. That tells me the Judging Manual is good, as it stands, and that may be true.

Perhaps the true concerns here are with the actual, real-time judging procedures, rather than with the rules within the Judging Manual, regarding "point deductions".

As my son used to say ..... "it is what it is".

totally!!!

Two things.
I believe that a certain knowledgeable person is working on that at this time.
Please don't take offense to this but if you have never had a car judged or judged a car following the VCCA "book" do one or the other a few times and then comment.
I have never heard of any club judging by the accessories or the rareity of the vehicle.
HOw could a 1938 with 26 accessories compete with a 1939 with 42 accessories available?...........+ thhe VCCA has too many judging catagories already. Sometimes there is only one or two car in a single catagory.

I am stepping in this with almost know knowledge of the scoring system used so I think I may be able to give a totally different view on this accessory stuff. By accessory is that accessory what was offered by Chevrolet or dealer offered accessory? If Chevrolet options were installed at the factory than it must be working and that's only fair. But on the flip side did that car actually come from the factory that way or is it made to look like it. Seems to me that if you have a garage find totally original factory NON accessory car you should start with 1000 points. Also adding non Chevrolet factory installed accessories is great if the owner want to do that but to me it becomes a who has the most money thing than an original car thing.

"Please don't take offense to this but if you have never had a car judged or judged a car following the VCCA "book" do one or the other a few times and then comment".

I do not take any offense to your comments.

My comments are not based on "MY judging or being judged experiences". My words were based on observations, coming from VCCA folks who have had their cars judged and those who have done the actual judging.

Initially, from the comments posted by others VCCA members, I was under the impression that the Judging Manual was just "no good", so I read through the Judging Manual. I did not see anything that was "no good".

Afterwards, the issue of "point deductions" came to light, referring to accessories. More problems, I thought.

Chef-Chevy had good advice about the accessories issue.

The responsibility of not "losing points" is in the owners lap, regarding the accessories.

If the accessories are Chevrolet, year and model suited, functional and installed correctly, no points SHOULD be deducted. Right ?

Seems easy, but will bet there are still stories of "deducted points" by judges.

That then leads to the ACTUAL JUDGING. Ongoing comments have been written, yours included, stating that the ACTUAL JUDGING needs fine tuning.

So, if the car is correct and the Judging Manual is clear, concise and fair, that leaves the ACTUAL judging to be refined .... if I understand it all correctly.

Ron Wades 1941 Convertible has many accessories and still managed to place lst in class and overall winner of 6-cylinders. This was at an Anniversary Meet. Ron's car was the subject of a series in the G&D on 1941 Accessories. I wrote that series and am the "wrench" on Ron's car. This just shows you can have your accessories and show them too.




PS: I think the Judging is placed under a new director and I expect to see many changes to the manual or maybe a completely new manual. So, let's be constructive with our suggestions and guide them to improvement to the Judging system.

Gene, put your post back up. You were right on the money!!!!

I was afraid that I was stiring too deep into the pot.

If I could find it I would.

"PS: I think the Judging is placed under a new director and I expect to see many changes to the manual or maybe a completely new manual. So, let's be constructive with our suggestions and guide them to improvement to the Judging system".

I have said that my comments are put together, as an observer, based on comments of VCCA members who have "judged vehicles" or those who have had "their cars judged".

Either way, if the powers within VCCA believe changes should be made or a new manual written, support should be given, by the membership, to that effort.