VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1937-1945 Lowered and Piped....

So I am a new VCCA member, and this may not be the appropriate forum or location for this, but I was having so much fun writing on the topic of radial whitewall tires in a previous topic that I thought I would put this out there in a more specific posting.
I would love to hear members thoughts on 37 - 42 (and newer) Chevys that are completely stock, but have been tastefully lowered and maybe have dual pipes (split manifold or headers).

Now I am not talking about even run of the mill stock here, I am talking about the DETAILS - year of manufacture plates, vintage dealership plate frames, correct bias plys, Hampton kit interiors, correct shades of paint, authentic GM accessories and dealership promo items, you name it. This seems to be a California phenomenon of having cars this authentic, yet being lowered a bit and having "pipes" for a sweet sound. Unfortunately, though, because of the lowered stance of our cars, I have had local VCCA guys completely write us off as "lowriders", with comments like "too bad you ruined a good car".

My first few issues of G & D were surprisingly frank about declining membership and the need for new and younger members (I was a bit surprised, with no offense, at how much attention is given to pre 37 cars, frankly not a generation of cars that will bring in younger members).

My local car club in California (a group of about 6 to 8 guys) all have cars as described above - over the top authentic and beautifully restored, but lowered and piped. We range in age from 31 - 52 (I'm 38), we are all different ethnicities and backgrounds, and I would guess this is the age bracket and demographic of new members G & D is seeking.

It kind of reminds me of why Chevys were shunned by younger people back in the day, and why Fords were the car of choice for someone younger - Fords had a more "youthful" presence and look with the V8 sound and performance, etc. The street rod movement today is seeing a huge revival by young guys creating Ford hot rods (sometimes referred to as "rat rods") that are extremely authentic in detail (bias plys, traditional details and accessories), and this is by the YOUNG guys, in their 20s and 30s! The older street rod enthusiast uses radials, modern technology, air conditioning, etc. Next time you see a 37 Chevy street rod with a Mustang II front end, 350/350, Vintage Air, etc. you can BET the owner is between 55 and 75!

My point in all of this - if one VCCA member is 65 years old, and his Chevy has new springs that managed to raise his car 2 inches, radial whites, personalized modern plates, painted 93 Honda green metallic and has a velour interior, but has all the nuances of being "stock" (and you know the cars I'm talking about) - can there be a movement to recruit members that are 35, have drop dead gorgeous and authentic cars but are lowered and piped? I guarantee you that a younger member is going to be more enthused about a dropped and piped car than one with a "stink bug" stance and sounding like a milk truck (okay, now I am really getting you mad)! Yet that "lowrider" probably has fewer net "modifications" in total than the 65 year old's car!

I think the VCCA has to get more younger members on board, and being more inclusive of what I will call a CA Look (let's try not use the term lowrider) could be the ticket. I don't really care so much about judging and rules here, just an education to all members on the benefits of some of these so-called lowriders, and how they can preserve Chevys and keep the flame of early Chevy restoration alive.

Okay guys and gals, let's here your responses!!

This is a really fun topic, thanks everyone.

Interesting point Richard.

PLEASE be on the look out for a "Help Wanted" positing in G&D and on this site. You may want to sign-up for a team position. Your observations and understanding could be of value to VCCA.

My expereince, be it limited, is in my hot rod days {60's} I do not remember a Ford beating a Chevy in a race. But there were some good looking hot rods of all builders, that's for sure.

Michael41

You are putting your head inside the bee's nest as long as the goal for VCCA is restoration and preservation of Chevrolets to original. In Norway Region(CCON) we also have the same goal. Still everybody can be a member, even without a Chevy. But due to the big majority of our members the club is aimed at the originality. The difficulties of giving correct advice in the prosess of changing and modifying in order to make the car legal for registration are huge. Also all original GM-manuals are ment for the factorymade cars and leaves no room for other experiments.

We have lots of F**D and Chevy's rodded or at least modified here, specially from mid 50ties. The extreme Hot Rods often will be made from a genuine 1930 - 1940, and (if possible) a delivery van would be the utmost challenge to the modifyers. That makes other people angry, and turn the two types of car nuts against each other. Quite a lot of older people deny to sell their cars to be modified, but it is difficult to reverse a deal after the new owner has chopped his own property.

The good, old mechanics knowing the originals are now actually "dieing out" so we need new ones to replace them and fast. A lot of the young modifyers are really good, helping all kinds of enthusiasts. They also supply some of the parts and left overs to us original freaks. Some have both original and really modified cars in the garage, using both.

Long ago I found I did not have the funds, room and time for saving all kinds of Chevys for the future, even the vans. There are many more stored away in barns or in pieces than are possible to restore during the next 100 years in Norway. Instead I really enjoy both other people's choice, skills and cars. But I still prefer my original beauties, as many of the young ones also do when I show up in the meetings and shows.

I think VCCA will need more youngsters to join and have an open, liberate mind. Still I am not certain the goal should be changed to all kinds of restoration.

I agree that originality and preservation should be the goal, but the "California set", with all due respect to the older members of the club, can teach everyone a thing or two about originality and preservation, especially when it comes to original GM accessories! (did anybody see the 1939 compass on ebay for $5,000 right now? WOW!)

If that has to come with a mild lowering and pipes (which could be so easily returned back to stock) to keep that kind of enthusiasm going and a passing of the torch, I think it should be absolutely embrassed, not shunned. Wouldn't everyone rather see a beatifully preserved and restored Chevy with rare and correct accessories save for being lowered and piped than a car that has the pretense of being stock but is even less so (with non-original paint, wrong interior fabrics, radial wide whites, incorrect accesories, etc)?

Would anyone be interested in me pursuing these ideas further and proposing a new column or monthly feature on CA cars and the efforts to preserve Chevys and add accessories, even if they were lowered? I honestly believe if you don't get one of these cars on the cover of G&D in the next few years, along with a new emphasis on better and more modern graphics and "feel" to the magazine, the future of VCCA could suffer.

Get a copy of a "Goodguys Gazette" - probably the biggest club magazine in the world going right now that is related to vintage cars. Even though it is for street rods, look at the great graphics and layout to get an idea on how to add youths to the VCCA.

I'll throw out another thought - what if some of these owners of "CA Look" cars also have ingenious ideas on adding driveablity - examples:
-Through some machining and crank drilling, making a 216 a full presure lube engine?
-Adding early 50s Buick gears (and sometimes Packard or other make parts) to add better gear ratios and even full syncro (1st gear!) operation to an original trans?
-Several ways to add better rear-end ratios to increase freeway speeds and capibility (powerglide rearend gears, Master gears instead of Master Deluxe, etc.)?

I know of several cars out here currently that are 100% stock looking on the mechanicals (no judge would even know without an internal teardown) that have a full syncro trans, awesome out of the hole power and can cruise at 85. This is what will keep younger people interested in getting into the VCCA, without the need to tear up a Chevy to give it the dreaded Mustang II frontend, 350/350 etc.

Let's keep stiring this pot, I LOVE IT!!!!!!

37Richard -

Welcome to the VCCA! I appreciate your enthusiasm, and eloquent and articulate expression of your thoughts - and I have to largely agree with you.

Changing differential gear ratios and other “invisible” improvements have been going on for many years. I have a good friend and a former national Board member who absolutely insists on having split manifolds on his 37, 41, and 42. And of course he’s not alone.

You make the point that there is an extreme desire to maintain originality of detail and accessories in the cars you offer as examples. That’s where the VCCA can be of benefit to you and your peers. And obviously, your participation (and other younger members you speak of) in the VCCA is good (vital!) for its long term success and survival, all the while maintaining VCCA’s reputation as the Club that is focused on authenticity and preservation.

If a car is lowered (just a little) and everything else is very stock, I’m not going to complain. In the next few months you will be learning about a new Class that was created at this year’s Board meeting, called “Chevrolet Driver Participation Class.” It specifically targets people who are not particularly interested in having their cars “Class Judged” to compete for First Junior, First Senior, et cetera (which is clearly a trend in California and the West anyway), but rather simply want to drive and enjoy their cars. This new classification will offer awards, Ovals, and recognition to these cars similar to Class Judging - and hopefully encourage their participation in more events. This is in contrast to cars that currently show up and simply get categorized as “Do Not Judge.”

I think you have identified some of the critical issues before the Club. Most of all, I would like to encourage you to keep telling us what you think, and take ”˜Mike41’ up on his suggestion to join the new Team that is forming to help move the VCCA into the future in a way that is agreeable to all of us. If you care to contact me directly to discuss any of this further, my contact info is in the front of the G&D each month. There is room for all of us in the hobby, and in this Club.

Don Williams
VCCA President

37Richard, It appears to me it has to do with ones perception as to what "dedicated to the restoration and preservation of Vintage Chevrolets 25 years or older." means to each one of us that endeavor to restore and drive our Vintage Chevrolets.

But, that isn't all there is to VCCA. We have a National Judging Chairman and a Judging Committee that operates in conjunction with the National Board of Directors that set the rules for Judging the cars that are shown under the banner of VCCA.

I do think that the National Board is now taking a broader look at what our club can do to make the club better for more people to enjoy.

I often get a newsletter from the Texas Streetrod Association and they have as many problems if not more than we do, un-answered Questions as to all steel some or all or none fiberglass. Also they had a stink as to what years were accepted on their show field whether it had to be a pre-war or a pre 1948 car. It seemed funny,to me, since most of the cars have late model Chevy engines, Chevy, Generic, Mopar and Ford bodys and whatever instruments and transmissions that can be covered up with an "OLD car body".

Different strokes for different folks!

37 Richard, This discussion can go on forever about modifying, but I don't think you will change anything, as the VCCA as you know is about preservation. I personaly think dual exhausts on a stovebolt are wonderful. I have headers on my '54 Belair. I was raised in California, graduated high school in 1955 and had a '50 coupe with dual intake and exhaust and lowering blocks.
If you attend a VCCA tour you will find a lot of modifications, it's just a matter of personal taste. A tastefuly modified car like your describing would be welcome on any VCCA tour, but don't bother putting it on the judging field. It's a great club with a lot of great friendly helpful people. Get involved maybe you can change some minds.
Cleon

37Richard - I have been a member of the Vintage Chevrolet Club of America for over 25 years. I am the 37 Chevrolet Truck Tech as listed each month of the national club magazine, "Generator and Distributor". I have always been "Welcomed" by all members of VCCA when in their presence. My truck is a past cover truck on the national club magazine,G & D. Take a look at my truck and tell me if there is a problem. I don't think there is! Look around - I think you'll find what you are looking for.
www.joefuchs.net/gallery/gallery.php?eventide=5

Joe

Happy to have your input & sharing your ideas. Thanks. Your timing is perfect.

First, while I have NOTHING to do with the G&D magazine or any VCCA editorials, I'd say "write your heart out" and submit the articles to YOUR region & G&D. Always nice to have membership input, after all it is your club as well.

Next, your timing is great. The current BOD is looking at the club with a more progressive stance and openness, which may bring about some improvements. And while many would welcome those changes and modifications in regards to "modified cars" there is also a rich heritage in VCCA which must be respected. As I am sure you know.

On a more personal note I have a stock, restored 41 coupe which I love. I
also had a stock looking 54, Bel Aire With a 348, & 5 speed hydro. Both cars are/were fun. But I do get in less trouble with the 41.

Finally, growing up in L. A. I know the car lovers & rodders out here are fun creative people. And they have set many standards and raised many eyebrows in the automotive field. But it's my view that KNOWLEDGE is shared, not owned. Thus I believe your and your friends involvement will aid VCCA in many ways, and VCCA will aid you as well. An appropriate and welcomed balance I my view.

So welcome aboard, stay involved and enjoy the heritage of chevrolets and the car hobby.
Mike41

PS: My 41 has twin pipes & a split Manifold. Which sounds really cool.

On this topic - my rule #1. Very few restored cars are 100% original. They may look original but use modern paint, higher gear ratios, overdrives, later brakes, radial tires, seat belts, turn signals, modern sound deadening materials, and so on...I'm for a middle of the road attitude on modifications. Each extreme is detrimental to the future of the club. My '55 is a 65000 original with urethane paint and an oil pressure gauge and ammeter. Does that make it modified? I think so....

If "EVERY" old chevy is eventually, one day, modified in one way or another, for the sake of personal, or artistic expression, or because of whatever reason. Who will ever know what a Chevrolet
"REALLY" looked like, or drove like? If the original technology is not "preserved"

Just my Opinion...

I love all of your responses; this is EXACTLY what I was hoping to see!! I can’t tell you how flattered that I am that Don responded as well, that means a lot.

I knew that there would be many members who could not resist the siren song of a piped Chevy 6 - is there a sweeter sounding engine in the world?

There was a TV program recently that influenced a lot of my thoughts about all of this (bear with me) - it was a concert with original Do Wop bands of the 50s, and looking at the aging Boomers in the crowd, I realized that 50s/60s songs are going to replace World War II era music as the "nostalgia" tunes for the next elder generation. This isn't a slam on 40's era music or memories of WWII (which I love!) at all, it's just the reality of which segment of our population is aging. But what do the Boomers remember about vintage Chevys that were their high school transportation? You guessed it, split manifolds, dual carb intakes, lowering blocks and so on (and being high school cars, weren't otherwise heavily modified).

Now don't get me wrong, I LOVE authentically restored Chevys that are 100 point correct (stink bug stance and all!), though I cringe at seeing these same cars with incorrect fog lamps or accessories, or a stance that is even HIGHER than stock.

And let's give credit to the CA Latinos that LOVE their early Chevys. Do some run 13 inch wire wheels, metalflake paint with airbrushed naked ladies, hydraulics and the like? Yep, and those are not the cars I am talking about, and frankly these have no place in VCCA. I'm talking about the Latinos that have collected and preserved RARE GM accessories and know an accessories booklet like the back of their hand. Guys like the Tovar brothers, Mike Ramos, Joe Epstein, Jacob Dominguez and others out here in CA are legends when it comes to vintage accessories and early Chevys (as well as their knowledge on originality and authenticity).

The VCCA does have a rich heritage of preservation of Chevys that is unmatched, and the help I have received in a short time is unbelievable! I got the correct color code for the pinstripe on my 37, and I can't thank “Chevgene” for his incredible generosity in heavily researching things like the correct fog lamps for my 37 (which are not the same as 38!) and sending me valuable info on original dealer accessories, etc.

I still think, however, that more attention should be paid to cars that Boomers and CA Latinos and others can sink their teeth into to, and here is a thought on all of this:

How about a new class of cars called, well, "Lowered and Piped"? But here would be the rules - the cars would be judged and would have to adhere to a 100% authenticity standard used in the upper classes of judging in VCCA, with the only things allowed being “bolt on" modifications that are PERIOD CORRECT - Fenton headers, Offenhouser intakes & valve covers and other rare speed equipment for example, along with the dreaded lowering. In fact, display the cars with their original equipment lying next to the car ready to bolt back on . But this would not be an equivalent to a "daily driver" or “modified” class of cars that have 12 volt electronics, radial whites and velour interiors … this is a whole new ball game that would add interest and maybe membership to the club.

Look, even Pebble Beach broke down and added Hot Rod and Custom classes (for authentically restored, period correct rods), and the response has been overwhelming positive.

So is anybody for the idea of a new class of Chevy, and even starting to feature them in G & D on a regular basis (and maybe having a column on this as well)?

Well, keep the responses coming, I am off to my first VCCA club meeting tonight, and I will be a good boy for my first meeting and not stick my "nose in the beehive" on this quite yet!

Richard,i am like you,piped and lowered.I have taken one of my car's to a VCCA event 1 time and that's it.I got so much negetivity that I seriously thought about dropping the VCCA.I was the bigger man though and did not penalize the whole bunch or myself.I still attend the event's and have met a bunch of great people.I have met ChevGene in person,great guy.

I love the sound of pipes on a six banger for about three minutes. After that the sound is annoying. I happen to be one of those old guys that due to hearing loud noised wears hearing aids. If I am on a tour with cars with pipes it can get very annoying. There is a difference between annice melow sound and what most go for.

I few remarks, but first thank you for your comments. They are all very telling and helpful in my view.

First, the comment made by MistGreenFifty, if you or any one receives "negative comments" from certain VCCA members, it is NOT the club, it's that member {s}. And the solution is simple, stay away from "that" member {s} but not the club.

Next if you met chevgene, you clearly have met one of many great people in VCCA, and there are a ton of others. All helpful, fun, interested, respectful folks. As you continue to meet other members and have fun attending events, your chevy will run better and your life will be more fun.

VCCA is a fun club a that offers a LOT of personal value. But it's like a normal city block, some folks are understanding and others are, well, less understanding. But all of them simply want you to know how they feel. It's just part of life.

VCCA needs YOU and THEM, to grow and prosper. So stick around, try more events and as far as any "modifications" go, do what you think is best for you, and the club. This is simply a reasonable balance.

But always remember, there's no such thing as to much fun !!
Michael41

Different strokes for different folks. Just have fun and enjoy...Oscar

Sadly, Misty Green Fifty and I are not alone then, and it would be interesting to hear others comment on such negativity.

The reason I continue on this rant is that the VCCA needs to educate members on why such lowered and piped cars can be a huge benefit to the club and future of vintage Chevys. I can easily see 30s/40s era Chevys going the way of Model Ts/As, where once the generation that appreciated them passed on, the remaining supply was turned into street rods. The same thing is happening with vintage Chevys, where Boomers are turning them into rods at an alarming rate. Thing is, there is a huge interest in "resto-mods" right now, that are stock bodied Chevys with modern drivetrains and a lowered stance. If we could promote and popularize the use of "invisible" mods to original Chevy drivetrains and lowering and piping otherwise stock cars, this would be a great thing. The Ford V8 clubs have taken a more proactive stance on this, promoting mild modifications and creating new classes for otherwise stock flathead Fords, knowing this at least preserves the integrity of the cars for the long term.

It's a two way street of respect - those that have lowered and piped cars can't look badly on totally stock cars, and shouldn't be rapping pipes and playing loud stereos that annoy others (good point on that earlier!); but owners of stock cars should view a lowered and piped car as a Chevy not turned into a street rod, and learn from the use of accessories and invisible mods to improve our cars.

Let's keep this topic going!

37Richard, as you well know, negativity is not a VCCA exclusive. I've been shunned by many "lowered & piped" owners at Long Beach & Pomona. Doesn't bother me one bit. It's just part of life when judgmental people are around.

But I realize, as I am sure you have, that's the persons choice, not the car clubs.

I've only been a member for 2+ years but I have not met that many negative people in VCCA. Just the normal amount and they don't bother me one bit.

So you may concentrate on "negativity" or move forward, have fun and enjoy VCCA.

Hope to see you sometime soon in So. Cal. Are you planning on attending the April 15 car show in Pasadena ?? I'll be there as will many fun members.

Also my region {So. Cal.} is having a New Member Recruiting Fair in Long Beach & Torrance soon. If your interested please send me your address and we'll be happy to include you in our mailings. Free dogs!

Michael41

Thanks Mike, I wouldn't be here if I thought VCCA wasn't a great club with wonderful people. You're right, in some of the clubs I hang with, we're "posers" and given negative feedback for not having wire wheels, pinstriping and loud stereos. We really are "in between", and people with cars like mine would be a better fit in the VCCA, frankly. Just looking for some positive feedback on cars like mine, I will post some pictures of our cars soon to everyone a better idea of what I am talking about, I think you will like what you see! Look for my black 37 4 door (flatback, no trunk with a continental spare on the back) at Long Beach, we go there all the time and we can "break bread" with the homeys! :)

Mike, forgot to add, I will bring you some lowering blocks if you want to park by our cars....

Gee whiz!
Seems to me that there are a lot of folks out there who have forgotten that IF IT AIN'T 75 YEARS OLD, IT'S JUST A USED CAR!
(this ought to stir up something!)