VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1912-1928 VIN location

I am sure this topic has been discussed before but I looked through quite a few postings and did not find the answer. Is there a VIN on 1928 National other than the body number? Where is it located? We have a title a that shows VIN of 3AB32151. Our inspection finds only a body number of 036870. The former owner of this vehicle was in the VCCA.

Ed

The number you listed will be on a data plate 1 13/16 X 3 1/2 located on end of the passengers side of the front seat.

Your data number indicates your vehicle was assembled in St Louis, Missouri, is a 1928, and was the 31151st vehicle assembled. The vehicle was assembled in late February.

Ray,

We have looked all over this car and cannot find the VIN. Is there another location? How would the VIN plate have been attached to the seat? Was it made of stamped steel? The body plate is still on the firewall and the same numbers show up in the wood in front of the passenger side of the seat on the floor board. Any help or suggestions are appreciated.

Ed

Not at all sure what you are telling me here.

The data numbers will be on a plate, as described above, made of aluminum and attached to the end of the front seat on the passenger's side with 4 small nails.

(It is a long story, but do not refer to the data numbers as VIN numbers).

Ray,

This car is located in a museum in Colorado. I am a trying to help the curator. The vehicle was purchased on E-bay by the owner of the museum. The problem is we cannot find the number listed on the title anywhere on the car... The state of Colorado wants to see the number on the title on the car. The title shows 3AB32151. Where is this number normally located on the vehicle? The only numbers we were able to find were body numbers and job numbers...

Here's a page that gives a little more info, even though it is targeted for 1931 Chevs.

http://1931chevrolet.com/specs6.htm

I thought that I had replied and posted but nothing went through! Basically, the serial or CAR NUMBER is on a stamped plate originally on the end of the passenger seat as explained previously though I am not sure if Canadian cars had the plate on the firewall. This loss of i.d. plate is something that is a perennial problem, and I don't believe that there is a stamped mnumber on the frame, so you will have to perhaps rely on old titles to show the car number and then perhaps in due course purchase a repro plate and have it stamped? Possibly, depending on when the plate went missing, rusted off or was removed, the State used the engine number for the title so the car number was superfluous except for parts ordering.

Up till now the club has only heard of one early(ca. 1930)car built in Germany(Karlsruhe??? will try to refresh my mind)with a stamped number on the chassis. All others assembled in Germany, Denmark, Sweden and Antwerp, including trucks have had the ID-plate on the fire wall inside the engine room until late 30ties.

At the moment we cannot tell what was going on in Poland, France, Switzerland, England etc. at the same time, but may get to know that later.

My Copenhagen built 1928 National touring actually has the chassis number stamped on the frame on the right hand side (on the outside towards the running boards) approximatly by the aft exhaust port. I was clearly visible after sandblasting the frame. It also had the plate on the right hand seat as usual.

Stig

Inspect the passenger end of the front seat. Look for any evidence of 4 nail holes in a rectangle pattern.

The information you posted above is a correct number for your vehicle.

If you were able to "find" your lost(?) data plate, would that make the state happy?

I think the State of Colorado would be happy if we were to "find" an offical looking plate like that pictured in Bill Barker's post. I will see what they think at the museum. Thanks for the info.

Keep me posted, and I will look for a plate if it will solve your problem.

I think the one in Germany was stamped on the rear right side of the chassis, and clearly visible. I will try to refind the picture and post it here.

Strange this has not been done to all vehicles, as the plate is easy to loose.

Here are some more German Chevies: note the XF code!

http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/chevytalk/GMhistory/foreignchev.html

GENERAL MOTORS G.m.b.H. was incorporated in Berlin 1925, probably on 1 April, as an "anticipatory measure" initially to be the German "front office" with orders being passed on to either of that G.M. Export Company Home Office in New York, G.M. International A/S in Københaven, Denmark, or G.M. Continental S.A., Antwerpen/Anvers, Belgium. The original capital of the company was 10,000 Reichsmark. The company was however just a small one-room office in Berlin that carried no stock of cars. George P. Harrington was the first Managing Director. This was against the background of rigid import restrictions that gripped the German market. That said a brochure of a 1925 Chevrolet Model M truck chassis clearly indicates a Berlin address, which proves that trucks were also imported to order as well as passenger cars.

In August 1925 the Reichstag passed a law that abolished import restrictions on motor cars and the small G.M. group moved immediately to the Freeport of Hamburg: ”˜Hamburg-Freihafen’. A building was leased, the staff increased, and by 1 October when the new legislation became effective, G.M. G.m.b.H. was ”˜ready for business as a warehousing operation’. Because of the continuing acute economic conditions prevailing, a dealer network was slowly built up though prospects for the passenger cars were not hopeful because of national prejudice in favour of domestic manufacturers and the prohibitive horsepower tax on the Chevrolet engine. The Chevrolet trucks were however thought to be ideally suited to the German market and on 8 April 1926 assembly started of C.K.D. commercial chassis kits from Chevrolet’s Bloomfield, New Jersey, Boxing Plant. The initial production was apparently 50 Chevrolet trucks per day, for dealers in Germany,
Czechoslovakia, Austria and Hungry. The code allocated by New York was ”˜XF’, that followed on from ”˜XE’, allocated to GENERAL MOTORS DO BRASIL, S.A., Sâo Paulo, that had opened in September 1925. ”˜XG’ was allocated in turn to GENERAL MOTORS SOUTH AFRICAN PTY. LIMITED, Elizabethtown, in August 1926.

In November 1926 G.m.b.H. moved to larger premises in Berlin, with a far more extensive assembly project. This was Berlin-Charlottenhütte and Berlin-Borsigwalde. This was otherwise known as the ”˜Borsigwalde’ Plant: the street address has been said to be Charlottenburger Strasse 63/85, Berlin-Borgiswalde but the Berlin Library state that the Berlin Address books quote from 1928 to 1935 “Berlin-Borsigwalde, Charlottenburger Str. 15-24, 1-93 and 65-85” although these addresses include the second plant referred to subsequently.
For this larger plant Homer George Zimmermann was drafted in by New York, previously being the Regional Director for Europe. He was appointed Managing Director for a short time with George Harrington as Sales Manager. Then in August 1927, Keith Wood was transferred from G.M. International to take over the management of the operation. Business was so good that a larger building was required, and it is believed in co-operation with Berlin-Karlsruher Industriewerke and Schweitzer & Oppler Eisenfabrikate, G.m.b.H. leased and remodelled a building in Karlsruher, the ”˜Karlsruher’ Plant. The building was partly occupied in October 1927 and by the end of December, all assembly operations were being carried on in the new building that seems to have been a short distance away from the Borsigwalde Plant. Berlin-Karlsruher Industriewerke (BKI), was formally Deutsche Waffen-und Munitionsfabriken A.G. [DWM].

The 1937 City Map of Berlin shows that on the left side of the Charlottenburger Strasse (Charlottenburg is a district of Berlin), there was a large industrial building listed as ”˜General Motors G.m.b.H.’ and ”˜Berlin-Karlsruher Industriewerke’ which also proves that the company was still there! The 1935 to 1937 address is quoted as
”Berlin-Reinickendorf, Spandauer Weg 1”: Borsigwalde is today part of Reinickendorf. The best suggestion from all the evidence is that G.m.b.H. were located on Cahrlottenburger Strasse, but the two buildings were separated and may even have been on opposite sides of the road.

Other Berlin motor plants at the time were:
1. Ford Motor Company A.G. in Berlin-Plötzensee but in 1931 this plant was deemed too small and as Ford wanted to assemble more than 64 ”˜Model A’ cars per day; Ford thus decided to build a new factory in Cologne).
2. Hudson-Essex Motors Comp. G.m.b.H. Berlin-Spandau
3. Studebaker Automobile G.m.b.H. in Hamburg
4. Willys-Overland-Crosley in Berlin-Adlershof.
5. Chrysler Company m.b.H. in Berlin-Johannisthal [in the 1928 address book
Berlin-Treptow, Ortsteil Johannisthal, Flugplatzstr. 3, and in 1929 renamed
Sturmvogelstraße].

L.C. Fitzgerald was appointed works manager in Berlin in 1927, and was transferred to Brazil in 1932. He entered the automobile trade in 1915. After spending 2½ years with the American Forces in France, he rejoined General Motors in 1919 for a three years’ manufacturing course. This was followed by two years on the road, after which he joined General Motors Export in 1926. He was subsequently made Production Manager of General Motors International [Copenhagen] and then joined G.m.b.H. After Brazil he went to the Detroit office of export plant engineering and maintenance, prior to proceeding to New Zealand for eight months on plant building and plant re-arrangement, and then to General Motors Limited by 1938.

The Berlin company enjoyed two years of prosperity, though the small passenger car business remained a closed field. In order to secure a slice of the market G.M. Corporation acquired a controlling interest in Adam Opel A.G. in Rüsselsheim, though it is believed that they had an office in Berlin, perhaps in Wiesbaden. Keith Wood was appointed Liaison Officer between Opel and the Regional Staff, and Arthur J. Wieland was appointed Managing Director of G.M. G.m.b.H. Wieland had been at one stage Managing Director of G.M. Near East in Alexandria that had opened a warehouse in August 1926. Wieland was appointed Sales Director for Opel in September 1930 and was succeeded by George Wolf, until Wolf left to head G.M. Peninsular, Barcelona in March 1932. Also in 1930, General Motors G.m.b.H. built a prototype of the first Overseas bus bodies designed by the Berlin Body Centre.

The depression hit Germany and with the competition from the Opel Blitz truck it was decided to end assembly in Berlin. Early in 1932 it was decided to place General Motors G.m.b.H. as a Zone Office of G.M. Continental S.A., Antwerp with William Lind in charge. Lind was moved in early 1934 to be Sales Manager at G.M. Nørdiska in Stockholm, and was replaced by F.A. von Schon, although he was transferred by July 1934 to Antwerp as Parts Manager and Hermann E. Hansen succeeded as Managing Director, and indeed may have been the last Managing Director.

In 1933, car assembly had finished in favour of imports through G.M. Continental. However in 1935, on 8 February 239 Chevrolet cars were ordered from G.M. Export Company, NY. In April 1937 a last order of 12 Chevrolet cars was received. However it appears that in 1936 and 1937 G.m.b.H. negotiated the right to build AC oil filters under licence from AC-Sphinx Sparking Plug Company Limited in Dunstable, though the licence fees were never paid.

Another allied company was Frigidaire G.m.b.H. that was incorporated on 6 September 1926 in order to sell Frigidaire appliances supplied through the General Motors Export Group. This G.m.b.H. was in the address books in 1931 and 1932 at the same address as the G.M.-plant and Berlin-Karlsruher Industriewerke: Berlin-Borsigwalde, Charlottenburger Strasse 1-93. In 1933 Frigidaire G.m.b.H. changed its residence to Wiebestrasse 12 in Berlin-Charlottenburg. This address was also quoted in the 1934 and 1935 street directories. In November 1939, Adam Opel A.G. purchased the entire direct investment of General Motors Corporation in Frigidaire G.m.b.H., located in Berlin and also in Rüsselsheim. These were heavily damaged in the War. However, it would seem that Frigidaire appliances were imported and only manufactured from 1937 onwards, by G.M. G.m.b.H. and then sold through Frigidaire G.m.b.H. It would seem that the appliances were manufactured at Rüsselsheim, and traded through the Berlin office. The Frigidaire machinery and equipment put into store were dismantled and removed from Berlin in June 1945 by the Soviets.

According to an official Reich report in 1943, the company had a capital of 1 million RM and was owned by General Motors Corporation in New York. However, control [by 1936?] was in the hands of the G.M. Export Company, NY, G.M. International and G.M. Continental. By 1939 the Committee of Control, or Board of Directors was:
JAMES D. MOONEY [JAMES DAVID MOONEY, Director General Motors Limited and Adam Opel A.G.]
Gr. HOWARD [GRAEME K. HOWARD, G.M. V-P, General Manager of G.M.O.O. until 1940]
C.R. OSBORN [CYRUS C. OSBORN, ALSO A DIRECTOR OF G.M. CONTINENTAL, AND SUISSE?]
E.S. HOGLUND [ELIS S. ”˜PETE’ HOGLUND, Continental?, G.M. SUISSE and also DIRECTOR OF ADAM OPEL A.G. ]
HERMANN HANSEN [KAUFMANN HERMANN HANSEN, WIESBADEN]

The Company Report says that the G.M. G.m.b.H. ceased trading in April 1937 but was not liquidated, and was then resuscitated in the summer of 1940. However, as mentioned above, it appears that 239 Chevrolet cars were sold, imported from G.M. Export Company in N.Y.C., delivered in February 1935. Then in 1937, 12 Chevrolet cars were sold. The office address in 1943 was GENERAL MOTORS G.m.b.H., Berlin W15, though the street address appears to be KURFÃœRSTENDAMM 207/8, FERNRUF, BERLIN 91 82 01.
The Kurfürstendamm 207/208 address noted on headed notepaper in 1942 was not in fact a G.M. address but the main bureau of the infamous Eduard Winter, in pre-war times a main dealer of G.M. cars, especially Opel. Today Winter is the largest dealer on Volkswagen in Berlin.

The evidence for the above is from General Motors World, July 1934, ”˜Deutsche Autos 1920-1945’, by Werner Oswald and ”˜Die deutsche Automobil-Industrie’ by: Hans-C. Graf von Seherr-Thoss, published in 1979

During the War, DWM were a munitions company, still in Karlsruher, code ”˜faa

I just bought your book about British Chevrolet buses through eBay. The story of plants and car/truck models etc. outside USA/Canada, is also very fascinating and may be could end in a book made before 2011? Would you do it, David? I think there are enough members of VCCA in Europe who could contribute to the story of the Chevrolet market in their areas to make this happen.

Let's try to collect bits and pieces, pictures etc. before it is too late?

Hi Solan! Did you buy the book through the online Trans-Pennine Publishing shop on E-bay?

There should be a book in due course about British Chevrolet lorries (trucks) to 1932, and I have already drafted a giant book on the history of GM in the British Isles to 1949 at the moment. I am currently working on a book that is a pictorial hardback on the wartime history of a Liverpool company that assembled thousands of military vehicles. Lots of Chevrolets and GMCs, wartime and post-war.

Yesss! I bought it as you mention. Do you have time for and interest in making a Chevrolet book about the European assembly factories and sales offices, and special models, may be before 2011?

I will try to support you with material, such as history, pictures and drawings from Norway. :)

Phew! Before 2011? The answer is that it may be impossible to write about the various plants as so much information has been lost, or was never recorded. I think that I still have a 1938? booklet by GM Nordiska about their Stockholm assembly plant, unless I sold it in the past! There is some information on GM Peninsular, Barcelona, and I have a little on GM Polska, Warsaw, but a colleague of mine, Ton Krill, is much more of an expert than I since he has been to the sites of these old plants in the past and studied GENERAL MOTORS WORLD. However, who knows we may be able to do something!

OK. May be we could search out some parts and make something from those plants. Myself, I have tried to get some information about the Copenhagen plant, but with little success. I know some of the Norwegian market.