VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION General Discussions Colorado

Hi,

Do we have a representative on the forum from Colorado? If so, please contact me.

Okay, then someone who has a good memory and is very observant that has been in Colorado?

Yes Ray, there is 50Jim or maybe it is Jim50
Jim Amos

Maybe I can help, I have been all over several times Colorado since the 1960s.
Memory, what is that?

Hi MrMack,

Thanks for your reply.

Does Colorado use 10% corn squeezings in their gas? They sell a low octane 85 for use in the mountains. Does it have any additives?

I had some extremely bad happenings on the way home. I am trying to figure out what the problem was.

No fun at all sitting 1/2 on the road and 1/2 off, 103 degrees, engine won't run, have roadside assistance, which is worthless, if you are out of cell phone range. Not a cop in a million miles. Not a happy camper.

Most of the gas sold in Colorado is pure.I found some mid-range pumps marked 10% ethanol....and some other exceptions but was always noted on the pump.The high altitude gas is just lower octane.Been that way for years.Due to the less oxygen the lower octane can be used.

Did you have fuel pump problems?...or injectors?

See the attached link, and scroll down to "Oxygenated Fuels".
Oxy fuels are mandated in the 7 county Metro Denver during the winter months to reduce the "brown cloud" that can form during temperature inversions that occur at that time of the year. If you purchased gasoline outside of the Denver area you shouldn't have gotten that type of fuel. Also I see MTBE stickers on some pumps year round, I don't know if there is actually that type of fuel in the pump or the station never removed the sticker(usually at the lower price cut rate stations).

http://www.cdphe.state.co.us/ap/mobile.asp#Oxygenated%20Gasoline%20Program

After the Anniversary Meet I stored my car and trailer in GJ and went SE solo with the MH (01 WH, Chev 454 Vortex, 30 foot MH).

I filled the tank in GJ with the 85 octane. Going across Colorado on hyw 50 was no problem. Stayed in the south for several days and purchased 87 octane for traveling. No problems. Came back across Colorado on I-70 with a full tank of 85 purchased just inside the border. Picked up trailer and car in GJ, filled 75 gal tank with 85.

Problem first started in Utah. Traveling 60-65 MPH, pulling trailer with car, 103 or better temp, air conditioner on in the MH. Without warning the engine quit as if you had turned off the ignition. Kinda scary at 60 MPH and no assist on steering or brakes. No cell phone service so just sat waiting for police. After about 30 minutes I tried to start engine and it came to life as if nothing was wrong. Drove another 100 miles without incident. Pulled into a service station and found a line at pump. Shut off engine for my turn. Attempted to start engine and no results. Was in process of getting a wrecker to pull me off the island. Tried to start engine and responded immediately. Drove about another 100 miles and at 65 MPH it quit again. This time I had cell phone service and contacted road side assistance. Solution was to tow both rigs (MH and Trailer) about 75 miles to a repair facility. By now I had zeroed in on the fuel filter. Demanded roadside send out a mechanic with a fuel filter which was installed by the side of the road. Engine responded immediately (although the filter was plugged, what solved the problem, the filter or the time to cool down?)

After the filter was installed I had one more incident of not starting (and the generator on the coach would not start at the same time).

Now that I am back at home base, do I remove a 75 gallon tank and replace the electric fuel pump and a new filter or time my trips so I don't have to travel when the temp is over 100 degrees?

Ray
Here in Aus there has been discussions about the use of ethanol fuels, but 1 of the arguements against is that ethanol fuels are destructive for the rubber (neoprene) components designed for ordinary (oil based) fuel.
I am not saying you are a victim of this but is a suggestion worth looking into.
Tony

My daughter's 2000 Camaro had the exact same problem. We fought that one for several months. Finally, took the car to the Chevrolet dealership and left it for a few days. They couldn't find anything wrong either. She got the car back and the same thing....it would die without notice. Took the car back to the dealership and told them to keep the car until they found the problem. The service manager drove the car home every night and to work every morning and finally it developed the same problem. He installed onboard instruments so that he could view them while driving, and while at a stop light the car died again. This time with his onboard instruments he saw it happen and he discovered (as I had suspected) that the electric fuel pump in the tank was defective. For no reason the pump would quit functioning and then after a short period of time the pump would work again.

End of story...they replaced the electric fuel pump and it has never happened again. And that was about four years ago.

By the way, Ethanol totally sucks and in this area they finally have done away with it due to numerous complaints about engine problems that were directly related to Ethanol.

Ray,
On our way home from GJ we had an incident similar to yours,while coming over Monarch Pass one of the vehicles in our caravan had the engine suddenly die without any warning, after coasting to the side of the road (which wasn't easy in the mountains)the engine fired on the first attempt and it never happened again. The temperature wasn't high since it was raining in the mountains.The mechanics in this area swear that the ethynol is affecting the injectors on the FI systems.

DD

I will add these comments to the Junk Yard Dogs posting.
In 2002 I was doing contract work for GM. We were doing quality audits in the rail yards where their vehicles were shipped. It wasn't unusal to have a vehicle that wouldn't start. Most vehicles are shipped from the assembly plants with only 3 or 4 gallons of gas. Usually you could pound on the underside of the gas tank with a rubber hammer and the engine would start. We called it "Wakeing Up The Fuel Pump"

DD

I would replace the fuel pump.From my observations the pumps on these units usually go bad at about 100,000 miles....and thats how the trouble begins.Eventually it will die completely.

Its an eletrical problem (motor in pump) and not the gas.Everything gets blamed on Ethanol these days when there is no other answer.

I wondered why they had 85 octane in Colorado and 87 in Oklahoma. I had lunch with a retired oil man yesterday. He said that you need a lower octane at higher elevations. He said at sea level you need 91 octane instead of 87.

i would get more data like checking the fuel pump pressure when the problem occures . as you said the gen. would not run and they use a differant pick up in the tank and they have a seperate fuel pump . usally if the main tank is less than one fourth the gen will not run . this keeps the gen fron using all the fuel in the tank . our mh has two tanks and both had sock filters in the tank . there are so many differant things that can cause problems on the new stuff . my wife has a buick auto that had a similar problem like start and run for a month and then stop . two differant dealers worked several months to correct the problem . they started on the easy stuff first the last was change the computer that fixed it . i think it was just a ground connection on the computer . if it was fuel problem the road would covered with stalled vehicles just like when our gas tanks got water in them and customers would only make it a block before their auto would stop . my brother was doing that to cover the fuel he was selling on the side and using . just like the empty oil cans that was opened on the bottom made to look full . hope this helps

Some of the carburated Motor homes have the single feed from the fuel tank and it tees off to supply the generator.

We had the same thing with a 96 Roadmaster until it completely quit on my wife in the middle of a very rare rainstorm (of course it would happen then) The wires going to the fuel pump in the tank were shorted and the fuel gauge sender and the fuel pump had to be replaced. My wife had a bad habit of running on the lower 1/4 of the tank, even though she had been told not to do that, her excuse was "Well you weren't here to fill the tank like you are supposed to do." ....So it really was my fault!

My theory was "vapor lock". With the low octane (85), addition of corn squeezings, and extreme heat, would be ideal conditions for "vapor lock". Otherwise why would it always operate after a cooling down period?

After I removed the fuel line to the coach generator, and activated the fuel pump, the generator started and ran fine for several hours.

The roadside assistance man suggested that the fuel pump (in the fuel tank) would be damaged and require replacement after fighting against a blocked fuel filter.

Not really excited about replacing the fuel pump, because of the requirement of dropping the large (75) gallon tank, and the price of the pump.

Vapor lock really isn't a problem with fuel injected engines because the pump is in the tank and the fuel is being pushed to the engine.Vapor lock occurs at or before the fuel pump when the gas boils, turns to a vapor, and vapor can not be drawn up to the pump.The later GM cars with carburetors had a return line from the pump back to the tank.This kept the fuel flowing in the tank to pump line to keep it cool.

Your going to be replacing the fuel pump sooner or later.When you do use a new Delco pump.The independent shops that I call on find that the after marker replacement pumps have a high rate of problems and the Delcos are still the best.It will be less expensive to replace it at home rather than have it done on the road.I see many of these pumps being replaced.

The cool down and run problem is common when the pump is on the way out......worse when filter is restricted due to pump working harder to push gas thru filter.

Octane and elevation.

You don't need a lower octane at higher elevations but can "Get by" with a lower octane.

The higher the elevation the less oxygen in the air -note when exerting your self in GJ.

The less oxygen (air) causes the fuel/air mixture to be more rich.The rich mixture burns slower and reduces pinging (pre-ignition).Due to this factor a lower octane gas can be used.

In the caruretor days a leaner high speed jet was used at elevations above 5000 feet.Some cars had "high altitude" kits.Also you will notice a loss of power at the higher elevations.The only positive way to eleminate this it to use a supercharger which forces air into the engine.Years ago some makes of cars with L head engines offered higher compression cylinder heads for this reason.
Modern cars have oxygen sensors wich regulate the fuel/air mixture, altitude "adjusters" and anti-knock sensors (anti-ping) that retard the timing if the engine pings.These many features more or less automaticlly adjust the mixture as required.

On the 1933-2 6 cyl. Chevrolets the octane selector (most mis-understood feature today) can be adjusted to compensate for grades of gas as well as altitude.The timing can be advanced further at high elevations as pinging is less possible.The farther the timing can be advanced (with-in reason) the more power the engine will produce.

The other area that I find 85 octane gas in on the Indiana and Ohio Turnpikes.Its sold as an ecomony grade....its great for me as my 55 + year old cars will run on 75 octane with out a problem.

Chev Nut
Another factor with fuel injection is the much higher pressure (around 30psi) reduces vapourlock to a large degree.

Ray
I dont see where you say the MH is carb or injected but as you say pump in tank I guess its injected. In either case replacing the pump at home would be easier and cheaper.
Use most of the fuel in the tank before you try to take it out. I would not put the fuel back in after draining it out.
Tony

Semi up-date:

Fuel pump, which includes the sender unit, mounted in the tank. Unit is in excess of $400.00.

Pulled soft codes and indicated it was a break in the ignition. Repairman has a theory that the ignition module, mounted directly over the radiator, breaks down under the extreme heat. Changed module $128.00, plus labor. Hope to make some short trips to see if it happens again.

Not at all excited about dropping the fuel tank and replacing the unit.

Engine is 454 Vortex. Awesome engine. Extreme improvement over the first throttle body injected engines.

Jury is still out.

Ray
If soft codes indicate break in the ignition I would also check the sensor that determines crankshaft and camshaft position even if the codes dont indicate either.
Tony