VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION VCCA Judging Questions Concours level judging?

Hello all,
I am very new to the VCCA. Have been with Late Great Chevys since the beginning ('58-'64 years)
I emailed novascott a long time ago, but have yet to receive a response.

I have an interest in seeing a class developed for the '58-'64 cars that would judge them on their accuracy of restoration, a concours class if you will. Unfortunately, in the hobby today, there is no judging forum anywhere where these cars can compete based on their attention to correctness or originality. There is no national organization which is devoted to historically accurate restorations of these cars, nor which educates the owners about what is/is not correct.
I have devoted roughly the last 20 years in my hobby to carefully documenting many original cars. I have a pretty good understanding of how most original components were finished and installed at the factory, including many differences and changes from plant to plant.

1. I would like to know if there is any interest in the VCCA to construct a judging venue where the cars can be recognized for such an accurate restoration.

2. If so, I would like to offer my help by contributing to the large task of compiling the extensive guidelines necessary.

Much could be said about this subject, but I've tried to keep this post short, so I hope my inquiry makes sense. I'd be very interested in hearing everyone's comments. As I said, I'm new here and am trying to learn what direction the VCCA has planned for the future.

Regards,
Verne.

Hi Verne_Frantz,

This quote has me confused:

What is YOUR understanding of the standards by which VCCA judges?

I am not trying to be argumentative on the subject, but it appears to me that what you propose is already in place and operating.

verne,

Have you had the opportunity to look at the VCCA judging form? I agree with AntiqueMechanic, I think the program is already in place.

As for the information that you have compiled, I'm sure that John Mahoney (John 348/340HP) would probably be interested....... I think that is part of a 10 year plan (but I might be mistaking).

John

Sorry guys,

I agree with Verne.

Although the device is in place for judging, there is no standard to judge against - it is still up to interpretation and the base knowledge of the judge to determine the score.

The manual stipulating what is correct for a specific year/model is in the works and I can't wait to see it.

I believe the timeline on this manual is completion by 2012. I know John Mahoney is putting it together - and like eating an elephant, you can get it done one bite at a time.

I am familiar with Verne's diverse background with documenting these vehicles and I think it would be in the best interest of the VCCA to work with him.

Oliver,

Where are you guys coming up with these statements?

You just negated the entire premise of the VCCA judging.

Well duh!

Verne,

I must admit I do not remember your email and you can ask just about anybody, I return my calls pretty quickly. Please contact me again at novasscott@aol.com and I will respond quickly.

Ollie has a great suggestion. John , Bob Hensel, and myself are currently working on establishing a complete archive of tech manuals from 1912 to 1980 and beyond. We have a fairly complete set from 1912 to 1954 but nothing yet from 1955 to 1980. That's where all of our members can help participate in an archive that will, hopefully be a gift to the future generations of enthusiasts. We will be developing a standard format that all contributors can use to continually update the documentation of Chevrolet facts for our members to have access to. It will be one bite at a time but we have already sat down to dinner!

Verne, your knowledge and resources will help this project which has a goal of competion by the 100th Anniversary of Chevrolet and the VCCA 50th Anniversary.

Now for your historically correct class. There has been discussion that we should have a "Touring Class" or driver class, a class for those who drive but want to keep them historically correct and to have a "concours" or a class for those who have restored and preserved their Chevys to absolute factory specification. This is a big task but not impossible. We need to hear from our members regarding this topic.

If I may, I would like to point to Ray's comments that we do have the ability to judge a vehicle that is very well restored and we also have a class for those vehicles that are still totally original unrestored. It is called HPOCF which stands for Historical Preservation of Original Chevrolet Features.

This has always been a tough task , to place vehicles that are driven actively with the same class with vehicles that are trailered and preserved. In my travels accross the country there seems to be some intereste in a "driver class" , similar to the AACA system. We have been talking to members of the AACA and watched how they have implemented their program. Maybe if we can establish language that correlates with the goals of this club with a proposed change in classes, then maybe the standard class judging that exists now could be the "Standard by which all Chevrolets are judged." I look forward to your responses and , Verne, please write back, I will answer you back.

Steve

Unfortunately I also must agree that a true concours type of evaluation is not the process used by the VCCA. The standard is set to "as delivered by the dealer with factory approved accessories" but is not the actual process. What is used is what can be "judged" in 10-20 minutes with numerous acceptible deviations from "original". These include many reproductions, paint and finish deviations, etc. If necessary I can give specific examples.

I would support a limited "by the numbers", nit-picky, part by part evaluation. I say limited because it would take two plus or minus hours to perform. The NCRS is the only organization that I know of that actually performs such an exhausting evaluation.

I also say limited because I don't believe there are many owners who want to got to the effort to make sure that every part is correct to the as originally manufactured standard. It is an expensive process, both in terms of dollars and time.

If Verne wants to set up a system I would support and assist in his efforts. It would need to be in addition to the present VCCA judging process.

I too am also interested in assisting with the manual. I have already provide some basic tire/wheel info to the database.

To those who may think I am not pleased, I think the VCCA is the best organization available for the Chevrolet purist- so please don't think I am against what is being supported. I think we need to take it to the next level - and as mentioned, what NCRS has done for Corvettes - I think the VCCA can accomplish for all Chevrolets.

My only concern has been the "judges knowledge" of the vehicle vs. a manual which would set a "standard" by model/year/option.

I don't think VCCA could or would want to do the same judging as NCRS. The last time I had a car judged in NCRS was at Cypress Gardens a few years ago. They could not agree how much over spray on the bell housing was correct.

How are you going to know when you have a "qualified" judge unless there is some sort of testing that a person would have to pass, or something else? The way it is now, anyone can judge regardless of their expetise. The car being reviewed can be up the creek because of bogus judging.

I just had my car judged at Chillicothe and now I know why there is so much negative feelings in VCCA with resepect to judging. Before you consider "the next level", you'll have to get past the first one.

There are "experts" in VCCA who can't agree. I'm not taking sides but I will loose points no mater which way I go. I have proof of that in my own car. I could go own for a long time about that fiasco but it would not change a thing. My car is stuck with an eronious score and there is is no mechansim to corret it.

I don't think the basic system is the problem. I think judging expertise by a judge for a particular year, and maybe even model, is the problem. The real enjoyment of the hobby is the fellowship with others who share the same interest and getting to enjoy some time "working" on old Chevys.

Roadster

There are experts, xpurts, x-spurts and expirets. Some have 'restored' their vehicle and know what was on it when they got it. Some have a vehicle their great, great grandfather (or other relative) ordered that way. Still others have looked at any similar vehicle they can find and know how the others were put together. And others have looked at literature and found one piece that supports what they 'know' is correct. For most of these X spirts no amount of documentation, logic or differing observation will change their minds. They know they are right!!!

Finally there are a precious few that have researched all of the above, have asked everyone that they can what is right and still have an open mind to accept other opinions and documentation. They do not rely on only one reference but only feel comfortable when three or more references agree. Factory photos of production lines and actual assembly photos carry some weight but publicity photos are considered only good if other sources verify them. They know that artists retouched photos, items were painted, polished, plated, staged, fabricated, specially lighted for the photo and no production vehicle ever matched the one in the photo.

Now which one do you want to evaluate your vintage Chevrolet? I say evaluate because the system to verify that a vehicle is truly an accurate restoration or preservation of original Chevrolet features is an evaluation process. Judging is a process that relies on the opinion of the judge. Look it up judge (both noun and verb) and see what it means.

Just playing devils advocate...perhaps the VCCA should do away with a judging system and just be a social club?

Well James , you're a hoot fancy tossing that one in .
Whats more , I fully support the idea , There are really so few of us who are able or willing to go that long road to perfection , that , to me , it all seems so pointless .
Of course I recognise that we are all different and that we individually get different things out of the VCCA ... but ...
Ahh never mind ,, I'll just keep driving my beloved old tuck ,, fixing the bits that wear out ,, going to shows where the perfectionists show off there pride and joy ... and leave all the dickering over the minutiae to those who love to argue/debate the unanswerable .

Despite all the concerted efforts of the 'purists' the VCCA was and will always remain a family oriented group. As I have been quoted here and elsewhere "It is the people." that make the club what it is, that keep us coming back to the tours, shows, meets, picnics, and other events. We get there with and by the cars but it is the people who are the reason we come. If we ever loose that we are dead!

Gentlemen,
First, let me apologize for not getting back sooner. I'm not on line at home. I'll try to clarify some points and my feelings that were perhaps unclear in my first post.

Unfortunately, I am not familiar with current VCCA judging. I do have a couple of friends who have had their cars judged at National events and heard their comments. They rang true to what Ollie and others have said - that the question of correctness mostly is answered by individual judges, based on their own opinion of what they think is correct.

I have a very wide appreciation of this hobby, meaning that I don't only appreciate the cars which are restored to the 100% historically accurate level. A few of my own cars are modified and I'm very happy to have them that way. But I also love the research into the history of these cars, especially learning exactly how these cars were originally built at the various factorys.

To further clarify, by that I'm referring to the '58-'64 era. This is the area where I have focused my interest, and I have been disapointed and saddened that these cars do not seem to have the level of support that other models and eras do. There are specific clubs who's goals are to support the interests of specific models, such as Camaros, Chevelles, Novas, Corvettes, etc (actually ALL of them EXCEPT '58-'64s). In each of these other eras, the cars have technical and historical support from race cars, to drivers, and to the concours level.
For those owners who might wish to achieve the "highest level" of restoration, there is simply no technical level of support for them; no "guideline", no series of articles in a specific national publication for those cars which strives to educate people or guide them toward that level.

The current single best level of support of that type is through web sites with forums for such open discussion. And to echo someone else's comments, plenty of people have decided that their version of history is the true one. I have had my own opinions changed after uncovering more empirical evidence. (and the very, very best evidence is the unmolested original car). Sometimes, an original car does not agree with Chevrolet documentation from the time. One must keep an open mind about such things. Afterall, the goal is not to see who is correct; the goal is (should be) simply to find the truth, including all the variations of the truth. Not every plant built these cars the same way, afterall.

Yes, I agree, the goal I would like to see for these '58-'64 cars will be very hard to achieve. From the work I have already done over the past 20 years, I feel that I know these cars "pretty" well, but there is still a LOT to learn. But I believe a good set of guidelines is the best way to proceed. Guidelines take the burden off of having to locate or educate a lot of ("x-pert") judges. They should help to level the playing field in competition, rather than having your car judged by one person's opinion.

25 years from now, should people have the opportunity to see an example of a '58-'64 Chevrolet exactly as the factory had built it? Are these cars historically significant enough to warrant such preservation? I would certainly hope so.

I meant no disrespect to the VCCA what-so-ever. In fact I was guided here by Ollie's information that such a task might already be in the works here. I hope when I get my first magazine, there will be information to tell me how to get a copy of the current judging guidelines.

Sorry for the very long post.

Regards
Verne.

You can get a judging manual from Steve Scott, VCCA Judging Committee chair for $ 5.00. He visits this site fairly often so may contact you or you can contact him directly for the address. Or you can visit the VCCA website [VCCA.org] and find his address.

Welcome to the VCCA we need some people to promote the '58 -64 Chevrolets. They represent a significant period in Chevy history and the "bigger is better" era and an attempt to the compact era. I think more new models, lines, sizes were built in that era than any other one.
Those models do not currently have judging guidelines written. I am sure that Steve and Bob Hensel would really appreciate someone to tackle some of them.

Or If you are not inclined to pay out The $5 The www.vcca.org site also has a Judging Manual posted.

Please note that the VCCA judging manual has not been updated recently.

V.J. Is the VCCA.ORG site online judging manual more or less current than the printed version available for $5? Thanks....

Hi Guys...

Just a FYI for any dumb new guys like me trying to become "up-to-date".

I was following the thread and it appears that the online judging manual is no longer with us :confused: as the existing link does not work, and I have been trying to write to some of the advisors and the e-mail address that were on the net (again, the link was not working today, someone kindly posted the old "full path") appear to be out of date (bouncing).

Can any of us help? Some of us are nerds (by our paycheck titles) and would very likely be happy to pitch in if needed..

Best,

Try This'un

VCCA Judgin\' Manual

Many thanks Mr. M.

Best,