VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1912-1928 The oldest Chevrolet

I was wondering... just a question, don't know the answer. What's the oldest Chevy still intact out there? Got thinking about this after reading about Pinky being on the last 4 Cylinder Tour with his 1914 Light Six.

I spent an hour going through the latest Roster from 2001, the green one. In the front, it indicates that there are a total of three 1912 models listed. I found all 3 of them. Ken Kaufmann's Little, Bob Little (no pun intended?) has a '12 Little in PA, and Sam Jaffe in NY has a '12 Little.

Now, I don't want to argue about whether or not a Little is a Chevrolet. Don't care, that's another story. But I'm wondering about the oldest Chevrolet that KNOWS it's a Chevrolet, as in "Classic Six;" not a Little - no disrepect intended for those who own Little's. If one came my way, I'd take it, too. From what I understand about the Roster, it is only indicating the results of people who have listed the cars they own. What else could it do?

That means there may be members who own early cars who don't list them to be visible in the Roster.

And of course there may well be misguided people who own early Chevys that are NOT in the VCCA. Obviously, their cars would not appear, either.

I bet the Sloan Museum has an old Chevy or two. Maybe at Henry Ford's place, too (God forbid, but I'm sure they have some stuff - can't remember, haven't been there for years).

There are zillions of other museums out there, too, of course.

I did not yet find the two 1913 models that are indicated in the Roster, don't know who owns them, or what model they are.

Then I thought of the infinite collective wisdom available here in this Chat Room, and thought I'd post this.

Anybody know of a gennuine, bona fide 1912 out there anywhere?

I'm sure Ken Kaufmann is the man to ask. I think the oldest one known is #53, a 1913 Model C that is in a museum in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. I would like to know more about the present condition of this car. I would also like to know about the 2 copper cooled Chevrolets. One still may be in the Ford Museum, the other was in the Harrah collection.

I thought I remembered reading something Ken Kaufman (I think?) had done a few years ago in G&D, talking about the early pictures of the prototypes, like "this is car #3 in front of such and such buildings, with X at the wheel", etc. Can't remember, though.

Surely some museum must still have one of those original 2,999 editions of the 1912?

I think those 2,999 cars were Littles, not Chevrolets.

The oldest 1913 Chevrolet Type C Six is #93 that was built in Detroit with the English Air starter which I estimate was built in July 1913 - just before production shifted to Flint. This # 93 was found by Stan Reynolds in the 40's and this unrestored chassis [that is missing its body] was given to the Reynolds-Alberta Museum in Wetaskiwin, Alberta. See the September 1996 G&D for more info.

Chevrolet production records as printed in the July 1988 G&D list only 402 Type C's production cars were built during 1913-4.
This same Car Production Record dated 4-14-17 list that Chevrolet built 2,999 Little 4 during 1912-3 and 494 Little 6 in 1913.

KenK

The oldest car with a Chevrolet Bowtie emblem on the radiator is the 1914 Baby Grand H-4 prototype owned by Chevrolet since 1920. See the May 1986 G&D for more data. Chevrolet reported its chassis is stamped #1 and dates from 1912 with the body installed in early 1913.
The oldest known 1914 H model is a 1914 Royal Mail H-2 #64 owned since the early 30's by a Chevy Dlr in Wis.

KenK

You say that you are also interested in the copper cooled car. Henry Ford Museum does still have the one that Henry purchased in 1923 (aqccording to the stories). The car sits on display with the hood closed and no special attention at all. I have been hoping to go back to the museum and ask to look at the car in better detail. I have also been to Pinky's house to see his copper cooled engine in his basement and other copper cooled information that he has. Sloan museum has a complete copper cooled engine (including the shrouding) that I hope to go see soon. If you would like I can e-mail some pictures of the engines.

Just in case you were interested, there was a "drive report" on the car and it turned the 1/4 mile in 41.3 seconds at 42 mph. I'm curious how that compares to the standard cooled car. Someday I will find out.

OK, I have read Ken's answers above with great interest & attention, and also reviewed the various G&D articles he has mentioned.

Again, in this conversation we are excluding vehicles with other badges, i.e., Little, Monroe, Whiting, etc.

To summarize and make sure we have this straight, there is no such thing as a 1912 Chevrolet. Period.

If I understand Ken's Sept. 1996 article, the very first Chevrolet-badged cars began with 5 units built in December 1912, as 1913 models "Type C - Six." (built in Detroit). Then, per Ken, we have a total of 58 (including the 5 from Dec. '12) built as 1913 models, ending in June, 1913. Ken also notes that it may be 51 units, not 58.

After the arbitrary cut-off in June, they began selling the cars as 1914 models, raised the price to $2,500, but made no actual changes in the cars. They also moved production to Flint in that time period. These were still "Type C - Six", but about the same time as they began calling them 1914 models, they came up with the name "Classic" in July 1913.

Therefore, any exisitng 1913 model, of which only (approx.) 58 were built, would properly be called a "Type C - Six", and the same car built after that point in time (June 1913) would be called a 1914 Classic Six".

So to re-summarize, there are zero 1912 Chevrolets, never any built. There were about 58 1913 models built. We know of one of at the Sloan Museum, which is refered to as "Number One" and has been owned by Chevrolet since 1920 (G&D May '86). The article indicates that this car chassis was built in 1912 and bodied in 1913. Per Ken's criteria, this qualifies it as a 1913 model. The next oldest Chevrolet now known is #93, in Alberta, which Ken estimates was built in July 1913, and which therefore presumably would have actually been sold as a 1914. Guess that also makes it a 'Classic Six', therefore.

It was a little confusing when looking at Ken's May '86 article, in that he says in the first paragraph that, basically, "there is no such thing as a 1913 model." But then he says that in May or June 1913 they began calling the production units "1914" - this begs the question (per my above analysis of the articles) "Would not those 58 units built PRIOR to June 1, 1913 therefore have been 1913 models?" If the switch to 1914 took place in the summer, what else could you call the cars built prior to that switch over?

So, we have one 1913 model know, at the Sloan Museum. Does anybody happen to know what 2 cars are listed in the VCCA Roster as 1913's? More Littles?

Let's hope Chevrolet brings out "Old Number One" at the 2011 50th Anniverxary Meet!

What about the prototype Model C that was built in Detroit by Louis Chevrolet and Planche? Is that the same car Cliff Durant drove to California? Wouldn't that be considered Number One even though it was built in 1912? The radiator looks like it came from an Oakland. The body looks familiar too. They must have bought it from a proprietary body maker. And that T head engine and transaxle - how similar is that to the Planche Roebling cars and the T head Mercer?

Regarding the “Number One” Model H Baby Grand prototype or experimental model, that the chassis was built in 1912, I would not label this Model H a 1913 model. I would call it a pre-production 1914 Model H-4, since prototype models usually are dated for the model year they are designed for. This 1914 prototype has not been in the Sloan Museum for about the last 20 years – Chevrolet has it in storage.

The May 86 article was on this 1914 Baby Grand prototype. The “no such thing as a 1913 model” was in reference to the 1914 Model H's.

Yes, the first Chevrolet Sixes are 1913 models - up to somewhere between 51 and 100 estimate serial numbers. I original tabulated the number of 1913-14 Chevrolet Sixes Type C built as 402 built in Flint plus another 97 built in Detroit, but since the state registration search never turned up a Type C serial # past the 400 mark, I now believe the reported 402 built includes total production, and I need to go back and adjust the early monthly production units.

KenK

On the copper cooled cars, there are two known to exist. However, a third one (a sedan) has been rumored to still exist also, and several VCCA members did see this car locked up in a garage back in the 1960's or 1970's somewhere in the Pacific Northwest. If that car is still around, then there are three! :eek: :eek: :eek: :confused: :confused: :confused:

hay skip ,I have heard that there are a number of 1923 copper cooled engines about as they were sold as generator plants at that time maybe thats what pinky has and I think bob hensel has one too . and maybe that the no 3 car has had a generator plant motor fitted in it ? have heard a few rumours of such cars over the years. seeing is beleiving .Jim

Hey Jimbo! Yes, that could be the case....and we will probably never know. However, as I remember, the VCCA fellows that saw this sedan, checked it out from end to end and they said it was, in fact, a real copper cooled 1923 sedan. I guess that it was a real low mileage, one owner car. But....again, who knows? And....besides.....that was over 30 years ago too. :eek: :eek: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Hey, Skippy Doodle-

If there's a copper-cooled Chevy out there, and it's in the Pacific Northwest, sounds to me like you need to round up the JY Puppies and get on the trail before it gets too much colder....

You wouldn't even have to lay a Bowtie across the hood of that one if you found it!

Hey Red Neck Don!!! Not a problem! The Junkyard Dogs and their puppies can find any Chevrolet Bow Tie Gold if they put their minds to it. All we have to do is to activate our Elvira Range Finder and we can zero in on it.

Seriously though, dudes have been looking for that mystery car for a long time, but keep your eyes peeled on the G&D in the meantime...because you never know what the JYD's will turn up. Our next big adventure is in November, and the big Chevrolet Bow Tie emblem is going on the trip just in case the JYD's run into a Duesenburg or something! :eek: :eek:

Don
The two 1913 models that are listed in the VCCA 2001 Roster are:
1913 Little 6 #106 in Nebraska
1913 Little 4 #2596 in Texas

Regards how the VCCA should list the 1912, 1913, and 1914 Model Years in the Roster.

1912 MODELS
- Little 4 [built from April 1912 to mid July 1912 that includes serial numbers up to 500]

1913 MODELS
- Little 4 [built mid-July 1912 to 1913 that includes serial number 501 and up.
- Little 6 [built December 1912 to 1913
- Chevrolet 6 Type C [built from December 1912 to about mid July 1913 that includes serial numbers up to somewhere between 51 and 100?]

1914 MODELS
- Model H [Built from August 1913 and up
- Model L Light 6 {Built from Nov-Dec 1913 and up

It is possible that the #93 Type C could of been started being built in Detroit in the summer of 1913 and was one of the cars that were driven up to Flint as a bare chassis? So even though it has Detroit hubcaps, it might not have been completed in Flint until several months later - say September of 1913 as a 1914 model?

The Sloan Museums Type C is #323, that is still claimed to be a 1912 model, most likely was built after January 1914 as a 1914 model.

So it is possible that a very early 1914 Model H like the Royal Mail #64 that I estimate was built in August 1913 could be an earlier built Chevrolet then the #93 Type C?

The real question should be, if Chevrolet as part of its 100 year Anniversary in 2011, have a "Oldest Chevrolet Car Contest" like they did back for its 25th Anniversary in 1936, what car would be authenicated? Some of the rules that applied back in 1936, where that it had to be currently licensed and driven, and it couldn't be owned by a Chevrolet employee or dealer. I am not sure if a pre-production car like the #1 Baby Grand would have been qualified, or if the car was missing its body or had been made into a speedster?

KenK

Chris, yes I would like to see photos from the Sloan Museum. I wonder if Pinky knows where his copper cooled engine came from.
Chevychip sent me a newspaper clipping photo of Louis Chevrolet in the Cornelian he drove in the 1915 Indianapolis 500. I would like to know where that car is. I once heard it was in the Indy 500 Museum, then I heard that it wasn't. The Cornelian had a Sterling engine made by one of Durant's companies.
Ken, how about giving us a short lecture on the Cornelian automobile.

Dave,
See last year G&D's between March and August 2001 for Cornelian Story. The July 2001 G&D tells about a man in Kalamazoo, Mich who owns and restored the original racer that was displayed at the 2001 Indy 500.

My understanding is was Chevrolet Engineering that gave the Henry Ford Museum its Copper Cooled Coupe in 1940.

Pinky's CC engine is a car engine - he also has a Delco Light Plant CC engine which is somewhat different. The Chevrolet Flint plants used some of the CC car engines in its tow tractors and that is where Pinky's came from.

KenK

Thanks Ken, maybe someday all those Chevrolet Review articles can be published in one volume.

I mentioned Chevrolets Oldest Chevrolet Contest a few post back and wondered if Chevrolet would have such a contest again in 2011?

See the April G&D for more about the winner of this contest, who was a Hiram Dohner of Quentin, PA who still owned and operated a 1914 Royal Mail #470 in 1935-6.

I always wondered what happened to this car?
Well it was tracked down by Ray and the current owner is the Swigart Museum in Huntingdon, PA

Chevrolet also had an Oldest Chevy Truck Contest in 1947 but it was a sham because they only allowed entries from 1918 Model T One Tonners - forgetting that Chevrolet built 490 Delivery Trucks in 1916-17 at its St Louis and Oakland, CA plants that at that time were not owned by Chevrolet.

KenK

Ken, i think you should put forward your ideas for the oldest car and truck to Chevrolet to be found for the 100th Anniversary. Perhaps the vcca could also be involved could be a way of finding some unknown cars and new members, or long forgotten old ones. See you Down Under soon.

What is a copper cooled engine???????????

Well, Ken-

You answer(s) are satisfying and thorough, as always. A couple of thoughts keep coming to mind:

You REALLY SHOULD combine and organize the 'Chevrolet Review' material into a single work, and publish it. It would be a big job, obviously; but it would become the definitive work on the early Chevrolet. Make George Damann look like a second grader (no offense to George, but obviously "60-75 Years of Chevrolet" is not remotely in the same league as your detailed material would be, especially true for the early years.

Secondly, as Jim (Australia) just posted, it's none too early to start working on Chevrolet to bring out some of their treasures for the 2011 50th Anniversary Meet, maybe working with Pinky? If we don't tell them, who's gonna?

Having said that, and reviewing some of the above posts, seems like really it's only their 98th Anniversay though, eh???

Don W.

Tim, I may be wrong but I believe it was a Chevrolet engine with copper coils and vanes instead of a water jacket , makeing it an air cooled engine. Is that right guys?



Try this one:
http://www.mindspring.com/~corvair/cococo4.html

Right on Mackie.