Howdy folks - the (almost) 25-year-old with a 76-year-old car is back with more questions. The car is a 48 Stylemaster, engine is a 59 235 with solid lifters.
First off, yes, there was some serious sludge build-up in the holes on the underside of the tubes. I left one of the tubes uncleaned so you could see it. This I can clean. After seeing it I think I'll pull my pan because I'm scared to see what it looks like.
Second, there is some wearing on the underside of the tubes. Ironically, the rocker arm(s) I knew were clogged are some of the least worn while the arms on the very end (the front set which are the highest up when mounted and thus might get the least oil?) have some more uneven wear. I took lots of pictures of the wear patterns on the tubes as well as a video. On the rocker arm which wasn't getting oil out the top, I did notice the metal cup which gets actioned by the pushrod has been worn in such a way that it has a sort of nipple shape instead of a continuous smooth sphere - this makes sense since oil wasn't getting to that point. While I can clean things out and swap the adjuster screws & nuts myself, looking at the tubes I'm thinking it would be better to just go ahead and have them rebuilt/replaced at this point. Thoughts? I'm tempted to say the valve tips look fine so I almost wish I could just get the tubes and nuts/screws but nobody seems to sell the tubes, I'm curious why that is?
It's also worth mentioning that I found the washer and spring which go between the oil passage/delivery tube and the innermost set of rockers were put on flipped 180 degrees with the washer against the rockers instead of being against the center fill tube as seen here: http://www.1954advance-design.com/Web%20images/1958-60-rocker-oil/1960-rocker-arm-lubrication.html - that's unfortunate but doesn't seem to have caused anything world ending.
As far as actually having them rebuilt - Chevs of the 40s seems to only offer a rebuild up to 58 oddly, I'm planning to call them and confirm that on Monday. The Filling Station offers a rebuild that does include 1959 which I'll call them about Monday as well. I see some folks referencing Kanter Auto in other posts but there stock seems out for the moment - again I'll see about calling them Monday for info. I am more than open to suggestions and recommendations.
Third, I noticed something weird. I know the later 235s like my 59 here have a slightly different oil delivery to the rocker arms which involves only a single tube. While cleaning things I immediately noticed that the oil delivery tube was loose from the body/ring it attaches to. I read somewhere that the fitting of this tube to the engine block is a press fitting so I'm hoping the other end is also some sort of press fit that seals once the assembly is tightened onto the engine... And hopefully not some soft weld of some sort that's broken? I've never noticed oil leaking from this place when the car is running so I'm hoping this is normal but figured I would ask. I took a video showing me moving the tube around and you can see how it twists and jiggles slightly.
Fourth, I'm honestly quite confused as to how oil comes out of the top of the rocker arms? Obviously, I see the whole in the top of the rocker arms, and I see it's a straight shot down to the topside of the rocker tube underneath. But the passage for oil to get out of the tubes is on the underside... so how does oil get from the underside of the tube to dribbling out the top of the rocker arms? My confusion is in that there doesn't seem to be anything at all that would force the oil to continue its journey up around the tube and up and out the top of the arm - as opposed to just leaking out between the arm and tube itself. Is the fitment of the arm on the shaft really enough to cause oil to move upwards like that? I have a feeling the answer lies in the grove cut on the inside of the arms, I see how that could get oil evenly around the shaft, but I don't see how it would get oil to go up and out that hole? It is simply a case of the path of least resistance?
You Are not gettig oil up to the rocker arms due to a sluged up passage between the head abd the block, 98% of the time it is necessary to remove the head and clean out the zig zag passage to solve the problm. Only 1959-1962okers will work due the lloation of the oiling groves in the rocker arms being off set for 1959 an up.
The 1941 and up engines did not have rocker arm bushings. if it has Hyd lifters it must HAVE A hYD, LIFTER CAMSHAFT. The oiler tube is a loose fit in the head.
I'll keep this in mind but, speaking honestly, at the moment I'm not too concerned with that possibility - in the previous post I made (https://vccachat.org/ubbthreads.php...r-arms-not-oiling-on-235.html#Post489250) there are some videos showing the one rocker arm which didn't have oil fully coming out of the top. Everything else had oil coming out and it was thoroughly covering all the other arms, dripping onto the valves, the push rods, and the surface of the engine under the rocker assembly was practically a puddle very quickly after the engine started from an otherwise "dry" state. This is something I've checked many times before so I'm confident oil is getting up there.
Here is a folder of those same videos if you want to see: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1oGj9lwbTUyAU1FVPvYVEJK23Vtp7NXJG?usp=sharing If you're wondering what's up with the screwdriver in one of those videos, this was me trying to find a ticking noise which turned out to be the pushrod actioning the rocker which wasn't getting oil properly. I am noticing some oil coming from right next to that tube (mentioned in the third part of this post) in suspicious quantities and will definitely keep an eye on that though.
That said, there were DEFINITELY some blocked passages in terms of the holes on the underside of the tubes, as shown in the pictures, which I feel could just as easily be responsible for some of the heavier wear. Keep in mind though that the history of the car/engine is entirely unknown, both in terms of how old these tubes are and how well previous owners treated things. I believe this car sat in a display for around 20 years so it's quite possible they just grabbed some engine that externally looked decent and tossed it in without much thought/rebuilding.
I do, thank you for sharing. It makes me wish I had the space and equipment to entirely pull the engine and go "all out" but sadly that's not possible for me currently.
The part where they tested the oil pressure is particularly interesting to me, someone had mentioned something similar in another rocker arm-related post and it's interesting to see how that test really works. I'm tempted to try that out while the assembly is off and see how well the oil is flowing out the top. I also just remembered there is a test port on the side of the block right next to that stem, I could probably hook my gauge up there as well to get a sense of how things are.
I just realized something though, you mentioned the rockers don't have bushings after 41. It makes me a little perturbed that I have to send them in for rebuild then given the tips that interact with the valves seem fine and the only other thing the services mention is new tubes and screws. They already sell new adjuster screws and nuts as a set, I would just need the tubes which nobody seems to directly sell. Still, I suppose a couple of the surfaces look a little oddly discolored and it's better to get it all done properly at once.
As Russell has shown above, shafts are available, and you do need new shafts.
As for the rocker arms... You said: "It makes me a little perturbed that I have to send them in for rebuild then given the tips that interact with the valves seem fine and the only other thing the services mention is new tubes and screws." The surfaces I'm seeing in your pictures are NOT alright, and need to be reconditioned by someone with the right equipment to do the job.. So... Given the worn condition of the bores, I would be looking for another full set of rocker arms if I were you. They do show up on Ebay from time to time.
Even if this engine seems to be getting oil up to the rocker arm area now, it appears to me that at some point in the past it was not.
Well, that's a bummer. I went ahead and put a lot of additional photos of the tips inside a folder on the share named "Additional Rocker Arm Pictures." I used the angle/light to exaggerate the wear which you can see as a dark lip/edge on the edge of the silver area farther from the camera. I'm curious to ask what it is exactly that you're seeing on the tips that look so bad? I noticed most of the tips were a different shiny silver but, re-checking the depth of that wear I find it unnoticeable on all but one or two arms, and even those 1 or 2 I hardly feel anything. I've yet to find a photo where that portion of the rockers isn't silver so I assumed that was normal and/or perhaps that was a different material insert.
Edit: I should note - the one arm that has a dark spot is not missing a chunk of metal, it's just a dark spot, not a hole/chip.
If they truly need to be resurfaced, I have no qualms about sending the thing in for rebuilding - but it sounds like you're suggesting I get a whole new rocker set. I see some on Ebay but I've yet to find anything that doesn't look either the same or worse in terms of both the tips and/or overall. Most of what I see on ebay looks much much deeper on the tip wear than mine.
I'm still planning to call the The Filling Station as well as possibly Kanter Auto and Rocker Arms Unlimited tomorrow to see what they say. I'll probably shoot the photos over to them and let them have a look as well.
I agree that the area of the tip where it contacts the top of the valve stem needs to be re-surfaced. Even if it is worn only .004" it will affect your valve clearance adjustment.
Unless you use a really narrow feeler gauge!
I just watched some of your videos. Those sure seem pretty noisy to me overall. That means the clearance is too great. That happens due to the wear on the rocker arm tip. A full width feeler gauge bridges between the unworn parts of the tip and the stem.
Last edited by Rusty 37 Master; 03/10/2407:12 PM. Reason: More Info
Reconditioning the tips isn't a big job. But it is a big deal, and i think they should all be done so they all the same.
Your real problem is the condition of the bores where they run on the shafts. The condition of your shafts tells me the bores won't be good either. That means boring them out and installing sleeves or bushings. That's a much bigger job... and the reason I think you should be looking for a better set of rocket arms.
On a used set of rocker arms, a little wear on the tips is normal, but easily fixed. It's the condition of the bores that matters.
I agree that your bigger issue is wear on the shafts and bores. All that clearance means that the rocker arm itself moves vertically before it starts to rotate to open the valve
Fixing the tips is easy with the proper fixture on a valve grinding machine.
huh... Pop this into Ebay. 186298807939 It just showed up today. "Mcquay-Norris RA-2 Complete Engine Rocker Arm Shafts - 1959-1962 Chevy 235" - seemingly new old stock... that's tempting. Ironically I'm all of 10 minutes from calling The Filling Station as they just opened moments ago.
Upon digging further - I see other recent listings selling for less than half of this... https://www.ebay.com/itm/134882303438 (700 versus 245). I've got the photos over to The Filling Station and am waiting to hear back and see what they (or rather the folks they work with) have to say.
I agree with Gene about how difficult it is to keep that passage in the block open. I know that my Dad was constantly fighting that problem in our ‘58 wagon with a 235. He even tried the trick with grinding a flat along the rocker arm mounting bolt. That did not help because the hole in the block was plugged.
Remember that in that time period motor oils did not have near the levels of detergents and additives to prevent sludge that we enjoy today.
