VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - GENERAL Body - Sheet Metal, Paint & Wood 31 paint colors and dash inset

AMEN.....We have complete and strict rules but why? So that we will know how to get around them......The big thing about what I have seen is a system that has not much of a stickler for ethics, with a few exceptions.
But Judging isn't the only part of the organization that is void of ethics. How about the parking rules, and whom they applied to, at Grand Junction?

Gentlemen, It troubles me to hear these statements about our judging program. After analysis of the judging at Grand Jct. I have concluded a number of things. First of all, many of our most experienced judges with knowledge of authenticity were not in attendance at this meet. Our system is completely volunteer. Many of our members dedicated their time and effort out there for the first time. We did not do the best job that we could have at GJ. We wound up with vehicles receiving first places because of low participation. We had vehicles where there were only one or two vehicles in the class. We found a problem with the language in the judging manual regarding the anniversary meet and therefore, we had vehicles scoring below 901 points with a first. We definitely have more work to do.

I had a larger number of calls and emails where authenticity was deducted when it should not have been. We have people that judged who, in my opinion, were afraid to admit they did not know everything but did not want our peers to discover that. This attitude has to change.

However, the statements made by r2d2 and Mack Attack are completely out of line. I'm sorry but this smacks of sour grapes, for one thing. Secondly, neither one of you have been involved in any of our judged meets until GJ but have been very vocal about issues you know little about. Our committee has been working very hard since 1997 to revise and improve a system of judging that was, in reality, non-existent before that time.

You two have absolutely no place in saying to our membership that our judging system has "serious problems that are dishonest and incompetent" R2D2, where do you come off with that statement? You have never been at a judging school, according to our data base. I know every member of this committee and to say that our program, and the work we have done, is dishonest and incompetent. Your accusations are unjust and inappropriate. By the way, this thread was started by asking about paint color. Look where you have taken this to.

A good moderator would have stepped in and said this needs to get back to the subject at hand. Who is the moderator of this area?

Mr. Macky Attacky Wacky, "But Judging isn't the only part of the organization that is void of ethics." "How about the parking rules, and whom they applied to, at Grand Junction?"

What does this have to do with '31 Paint colors? What evidence do you have that supports a void of ethics? Is this talking the talk or walking the walk?

If I were a new member I would exit this site as soon as I could. Void of Ethics? I would like for you to give everyone on this chat site a lesson on why you think the judging system is void on ethics. I want everyone to know, however, that Your vehicle has not been judged at a sanctioned VCCA Meet in a very long time. I also do not have your name in our data base as a judge in our system? Why? Where is the support for such harsh accusations of a program that people worked their tails off for?

Chip Sweet has a great suggestion and I would like to take it a step further. We need to approve who is the chief judge at every National Meet of the VCCA. That person has to have experience in judging, have had training in our judging schools and is willing to cooperate with the national judging committee. By the way Mr. Roger Williams and Steve Leunig were chief and asst. chief judges who fit this mold.

To take it a step further, maybe we need a team of judges who, like the AACA and NCRS, NNN, and CCI, have a set of registered judges who travel and get paid to judge at meets. Maybe we need to get away from the volunteer judges. That is something we need to discuss further.

I have said what needs to be said.

I find the comments about judging interesting. I've participated as a judge for more than 20 years with the Mid America Old Time Auto Association, and know that it is a thankless task, and one where ethics are paramount. I've never judged or had a car judged in a VCCA meet, but I'm building a car that I hope will stand up to much scrutiny by any team of judges. I very much need the knowledge of the experienced Chevy lovers on this site to accomplish my mission. Thank you for all the advice you have given me so far, and in advance for future insights.

I'm still very interested in the answer to my original question about Boulevard Maroon paint. I need to make a decision about paint color soon. Hopefully, K1dan will soon be near his materials and can provide info on whether they are the same replacement color. If anyone has information on this topic, please share it with me.

6wheel,
Check out these two sites. PPG paint colors
DuPont paint colors
They may help you understand what old paint combinations help is available and the difference in the Boulevard Maroon and Harvard Crimson.

Thanks Chip, after I figured out how to navigate through those sites, I found the old chips for Boulevard Maroon and Harvard Crimson. Both names apear in the 1931 list, and in the 1930 list as well. The two appear to be very close to the same color. Those chips have faded through the years, so it's really hard to tell for sure if they are actually the same color. Any differences I noted may have been attributable to fading. I have 2 modern replacements for Harvard Crimson (68 Fiat and 63 Mercedes). If I had a modern replacement for Boulevard Maroon, I could make a better comparison. Possibly my best approach now is to take this info to the local paint shop, and see what they can do with the old paint codes. Any other ideas would be appreciated.

If you have a small amount of each PPG replacement color [IM -694 Boulevard Maroon; IM-950 Harvard Crimson] made and paint a test panel you can determine the colors more accurately. At least to what PPG thinks are the correct replacement colors.

I took a look at the two chips in question and have determined they are indeed very close, (at least according to the source I have). My source is the Glidden Paint chip book that Dad used. These colors are so close I defy anyone to determine the difference on cars parked side by side. I will attempt to determine a modern match. I'll update you all soon.

I would caution you about trying to use the samples of colors online to determine differences. The factors involved are numerous. First, the monitor you are using may display hues differently. Secondly, the scanner used to digitize the color chips may or may not have the resolution to differentiate between certain colors. Thirdly, the printer you have probably only uses a finite number of colors to reproduce the representation. Where the tinting colors used by paint manufacturers are greatly varied.

An example is to look at the number of tinting colors listed in a paint chip book. Boulevard Maroon lists an Aliz. Maroon toner as a base then calls for a Tuscan red and Dark red, and Black. Where Harvard Crimson has only three colors listed: Aliz. (Alizerine), Maroon toner, Tuscan Red, and Black. I have found references to tinting colors used in my book for other colors that call for a Dark Chrome Green, Medium Chrome Green, as well as Light Chrome Green. That is just this source. I would think that had this been, say a DuPont book, the tinting colors used would have been their own proprietary colors and would have been used in different quantities to achieve a reasonable color match.

As far as using a reference to the difference between “Crimson” and “Maroon”, I would suggest you consult formulas for other colors such as Greens or Grays that the predominate colors are such as Sheffield green, the formula I have calls for 16 parts Black and 2 ½ parts Light Chrome Yellow.

I only want you to understand that the reference to what a color is named only represents what the person who named it wanted to call it. “A Rose by any other name.”

Dan.

I went to my local paint jobber, (DuPont and Nason). I was told that an area of 3 X 3 inches is recommended to scan a color.

He told me that the scanner will give a formula that may or may not be exact. The reason is due to tinting colors used may not be able reach an exact match without some human intervention. He felt he could make a reasonable match when he actually mixed the paint, however this would involve a minimum of one pint of product. He said in the case of his higher end product this could mean $100.00 or more per color. He stated that he has seen a difference in the same paint colors from different mixing batches from different manufacturers. Often the difference in how the paint is cared for or the conditions in the environment it is subjected to before, during and after application may result in a different “shade”. I guess what I am saying is: “How much tolerance is close enough?”

He also told me that any scratches or scuffs in the source of the scan will cause a difference in the resulting formula. The chips I have are scuffed from rubbing against the facing page in the book. I am not sure if this damage can be repaired without destroying the chip or the entire page.

I am going to make an appointment with him in the future to see what difference the scanner “sees” in the Harvard Crimson and Boulevard Maroon with the chips I have available.

Dan.

K1dan, thanks for all the research. I appreciate your help. So far, it sounds like any difference between the two colors could not be discerned by most.