VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - GENERAL Body - Sheet Metal, Paint & Wood WHICH PAINT SYSTEM?

AFTER YOU HAVE GOTTEN THE PAINT FORMULAS, CODES, ETC. AND THAT MAJOR DECISION ABOUT PAINTING HAS TO BE MADE, DO YOU:
-USE NITROCELLULOSE LACQUER? OR ONE OF THE MODERN PAINTS?
-CLEAR COAT?
-WHAT ARE THE PROS & CONS OF BOTH?
-WHAT ARE SOME OF YOUR EXPERIENCES? WHAT WOULD YOU USE?
-LIVING IN FLORIDA, HOW DOES THAT AFFECT MY DECISION?
THANKS, GATOR

Hey Gator! Everyone has their own likes and dislikes, and their own opinions as well. Myself, I love Nitrocellulose Lacquer, not only because it is easy to work with and it looks fantastic when done, but it is original. The three paint systems that seems to be used the most are: Acrylic Lacquer, Nitrocellulose Lacquer and Base Coat/Clear Coat. They all have advantages and disadvantges. For example, with Base Coat/Clear Coat touch up on paint chips is a bear since you have to usually panel paint, whereas with lacquer you can either spot paint or use a brush on the paint chip and block sand it out. But, if you use clear over the lacquer then that procedure is different too. The down side of lacquer (both acrylic and Nitro) is that it is constantly shrinking with the weather and so forth. Actually, the decision is up to you since it is your car, and on show cars different things are done vs. cars that are going to be driven. Also, if you are going to paint the car yourself as I do, then that has a bearing on what paint system to use as well. :eek:

Gator, I always used Nitrocellouse Lacquer until it became hard to get. It is easy to use IF you don't know what easy is, The environmental folks are determined to make it hard to buy and apply anywhere that they have a chance. Old cars just look strange to me with a ultra-shiny base coat clear coat that you can look several inches into.

JYD,
what is the available supply that the Hiberia has, somewhere I heard the name, is that the supplier you mentioned? and what is the price of a gallon of maroon or Regatta blue? Also do they have areas that are prohibited to ship to, that you know of? I have had some problems of finding high quality Lacquer thinner. :arrow:

http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/nashwilliams/my34.html

I had my 34 painted in '2 pack', which I think you guys call 2 parts?
Everyone I spoke too said this gave a better finish but required some degree of experience to spray on.

I've had the misfortune of having a few stone chips since I had it painted, but found as long as the chip did not go deep, I could touch up and rub back with very very fine wet & dry paper, buff and polish and well, it was fixed.

Something I'm unsure; the colour on my 34 is a dark colour, so I'm unsure how you would go fixing up stone chips with a lighter colour.

Other things I've noticed;
The wheels I had painted professionally, done in Acrylic.
I had some tar spots on one of the wheels and had a can made up (Acrylic) of the same color, but from a different paint shop.
When it had dried, it was a slight shade darker.

Having said that,I think I would get enough paint made up, to do all the job, at the one time.

Here locally, acrylic lacquer is easy to get in any color and so is quality lacquer thinner. The local automotive paint store has it in stock. Yes, Hybernia still sells Nitrocellulose Lacquer and they have just about any color available back into the 1920's. I don't know the current price of Maroons and Reds however, so you will have to check with them on that.

JYD, we have Acryllic Lacquer but it is higher than a cat's back, BUT NO Nitrocellulose mixers , they all want to sell basecoat clear coat. The smell of Lacquer is swell!

Macky Wacky! Acrylic lacquer is still fairly reasonable here. I can get a gallon of black for under $100 and lacquer thinner is around $17 per gallon for the high quality stuff. Up until 5 or 6 years ago I could still get black Nitro locally too.

JYD,
I would add acrylic enamel with catalyst added to the list of freguently used paint systems. With a good quality gun it is nearly as easy to paint as lacquer. It wet sands well and can be buffed just like lacquer. If done right you can't tell it from lacquer and it does not chip or crack like lacquer. Polyurethane enamel is also used but tends to have a much deeper shine than original finishes and it requires much care in application as it can make you real sick. It is tougher than a three-legged wild cat.
The surface preparation, primers are also important to a good long lasting finish. They should be selected to be compatible with the top coat. All primers and preps are not compatible with all top coats. :confused: :p

Hey Chipper! Most of the fellows that I know in my area that are into this type of thing won't use Acrylic Enamel and they all seem to use one of the Big Three: Nito Lacquer, Acrylic Lacquer or Base Coat/Clear Coat. But sure, Acrylic Enamel should be added to the list since a lot of fellows do use it. I have used acrylic enamel with the catalyst in the past and I found it a real bear cat to wet sand, and buff, unlike lacquer. I also found that it is not as forgiving as lacquer, and it is very temperature critical, especially for trapped solvents, blush and etc. So, I now only use it on wheel barrows, garbage cans and Sherman Tanks! ha ha! But, you are correct, done properly, Acrylic Enamel looks like lacquer but it definitely takes lots of work to get that look. Anyway, a lot of dudes like that stuff and that's great. I have found that different things work for different people, and that's cool, and once you have a system that works for you....stick with it! Ya!

JYD, I also have used Acrylic Enamel but on trucks and one Garden Tractor, It went on much smoother for me than Lacquer, I have to paint when the temp is a little high and humidity is usually low for a good viscus Lacquer and sometimes it dries before it hits the metal and orange peel is a problem or runs if I put it on wet enough to dry shinny. I never have as many runs with Acrylic Enamel, but by the time I get my spraying technique back in swing the project is done, maybe I just need a couple of cars to practice on each time.

IS THERE ANY UNIFORM OPINION ON A FRAME PAINT SYSTEM? HOW ABOUT SOME OF THE "HARDER" PAINTS, OR DOES THAT JUST MAKE REPAIRS MORE DIFFICULT?
I WANT TO DRIVE MY CAR, NOT A TRAILER QUEEN, IT SEEMS THAT STONE/ROCK CHIP REPAIR SHOULD BE A MAJOR CONCERN FOR ME. NITRO SEEMS TO BE THE EASIER ONE TO REPAIR, IS THIS CORRECT?
SPEAKING OF THAT I HAVE SEEN "CAR BRAS" FOR '32 CHEVYS ADVERTISED, ARE THEY PRACTICAL?
SOME PAINTER HAVE TOLD ME HORRIOR STORIES ABOUT HOW THE SUN EFFECTS THE PAINT, IS THERE A BETTER SYSTEM FOR US IN THE DEEP SOUTH?

Hey Macky Wacky! Sounds to me that you are using the wrong temperature lacquer thinner if your lacquer is going on dry. Since I have been painting with lacquer for years, I now use only slow thinner for all temperature ranges, and I just adjust my fluid control based on the current temperature. Also, with slow thinner you get better color holdout as well. Heck, I have sprayed lacquer anywhere from 35 degrees to almost 100 degrees and I have never had a problem, but the fluid control has to be just right when I use slow thinner.

Yes, there are a lot of temperature ranges of lacquer thinner to choose from, but the three basic types are: Fast (for cold temperatures), Medium (for warmer temperatures) and Slow (for hot temperatures). And, each one has a different flash time as well. Sounds like you need to use either Medium or Slow thinner for your application. I would go with the Slow thinner and with that you are going to find a whole new world out there in painting lacquer and you won't believe how great the finished job will look with the Slow thinner. All automotive paint shops have these different types of thinners. PPG products are great to work with.

No, I don't have an HVLP paint gun since I like the old way myself, and I love my Binks Model 7 spray gun. Like I said earlier, when you get something that works for you...stick with it!

You asked about if the sun can do damage.
I know the original paint (Nitrocellouse?) on my 34 was 'two tone', almost black on the top half from baking in the sun and the dark green it is on the bottom half. How long it took to get to this stage I'm unsure, as I've only had it for 8yrs.

You also asked about harder/stronger paints. I think the trucking industry may have some clues on this or check to see if there is a techinical division with the paint manufacturers.
I know that a few years back the paint manufacturers had been working on harder paints for trucks as from the miles they tick over and the exposure to stone chips is far greater, but what type of paint it is, I have no idea.

If you intend driving it everywhere, then I think I would be looking at a paint that suits the job or what the budget can afford.

As I sit here and read all these opinions I am just as confused as before except now I know the difference between paints. I am in the very early stages of restoring my 64 stepside and probably need to decide which paint system I will use. I have been told by my local paint suppliers that Nitro Laquer is not available anymore. The local opinion around here is base coat/ clear coat. I still don't know. I want it to look original but if it no longer available..........

Tom in Central Texas

I think one thing you guys forgot is that laquer might be around now, but what about in 5-7 years when we might not be able to get it. I agree with Chip on this one, I am using the acrylic enamal with a catalyst for the first time and I like it. I am a purist but I am making a decision for future work that may occur.
I really do not think the manufactureres will continue to make laquer much longer, it really has a small demand in this day and age.
John 348

I have no problem getting either acrylic lacquer or Nitro. The acrylic lacquer is available locally and the Nitro is available out of New Jersey. However, on the acrylic lacquer it all depends upon where you live whether or not it is in stock. Lots of painters in this area are still using the acrylic lacquer. The choice of paint is up to you, and if you are going to paint your vehicle yourself has a bearing as well. Also, unmixed acrylic lacquer and Nitro will last for years and years. I have some unmixed Duco Nitro lacquer that I have been saving for over 20 years in it is still ready to go anytime that I need it.

I HAVE PAINTED SMALL STUFF OVER THE YEARS, BUT NEVER A WHOLE CAR. SOOOOOOOOO...
1. I HAVE A GOOD OLD FASHIONED PAINT GUN(NEVER USED MIB, 20 YEARS OLD, DEVIVES?) NOT A MODERN HVLP, IS IT OK TO USE?
2. WHICH SYSTEM IS THE MOST FORGIVING WHEN YOU GET RUNS, DUST, EYES, ETC IN THE PAINT? (I PLAN FOR THE WORST TO HAPPEN AND HOPE FOR THE BEST.)
3. WHAT PROTECTION SHOULD YOU USE WHEN USING SYSTEM RECOMMENDED IN #2?
4. I PLAN ON PAINTING THE CAR IN PIECES IS THIS "OK" OR SHOULD IT BE PAINTED AFTER ASSEMBLY?
5. WHAT SPECIAL TOOLS WILL I NEED? THE BUFFING TROUBLES ME. I JUST HAVE THE GUN AND A 5 HP COMPRESSOR. I HAVE A SHOP WHERE I CAN JURY RIG A SPRAY BOOTH.
6. IS THERE ONE GOOD BOOK OR SOURCE OF INFORMATION THAT COULD HELP ME?
7. I KNOW I SHOULD USE THE SAME COMPANY ALL THE WAY THRU THE PREP AND PAINT PROCESS, WHICH PAINT SYSTEM HAVE YOU HAD THE BEST LUCK WITH? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Of the three choices mentioned ,is the base coat/clear coat referring to acrylic urethane? Or is their a reason this is not mentioned? I painted my '26 with this ,in my driveway ,It dried quick and the finish is beautiful. But, I did not do the base coat/clear coat because as an amateur I expect to make repairs. :rolleyes:

Gator, the most forgiving system for runs and the like is lacquer, preps are about the same for it and acrylic lacquer, enamel, the metal work below is the bigest factor in the final product. So what ever system you use take your time with the bodywork and preps, use a good fisheye preventer in the finish and don't pile on the clear over the finish. A good hand rubbed lacqure finish is as good as it gets. It just takes time and lots of sanding.

THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION, I THINK LACQUER IS THE WAY I'M GOING TO GO.
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ACRYLIC AND NITRO LACQUERS? :confused: :confused:

Nitrocellulose lacquer uses a nitro base and acrylic lacquer has an acrylic base. Acrylic lacquer was used after 1955 on GM cars.

I've bought the engine gray from the Filling Station for my 32 Chev. I'm told I can spray it straight (above 65°) from the can without any reducer. Do I need any primer, and if so, what kind?

HELLO RWOLF, I SPRAYED MY 32 ENGINE WITH THE GRAY PAINT I BOUGHT FROM THE FILLING STATION. I DID NOT USE ANY REDUCER OR PRIMER AND IT WENT ON PERFECT AND STAYS ON, NO PROBLEMS. I GOT A COUPLE CHIPS ON THE ENGINE WORKING ON IT AND TOOK A SMALL BRUSH.PAINTED THE SPOTS AND THEY TOUCHED UP BEAUTIFUL. YOU CANT TELL WHERE THEY WERE. I THINK YOU WILL BE VERY HAPPY WITH THE RESULTS???? THANKS DON :) :) :) :)

Hello Rwolf,
Just thought I would add a suggestion or two, if the engine block has been cleaned to bare metal, I would suggest using an etching primer/sealer prior to painting. It is now available in spray cans from most of the automotive paint manufactures, but I have had really good results with UPOL Acid 8. It contains zinc cromate and phosphoric acid, to make a chemical bond to the bare metal. Since the EPA has forced paint manufacturers to remove the Lead from their products, the most effective way to get adhesion between bare metal and the top coats, is a good etching type primer.
A couple of good coats of the etch primer, let it flash off, generally 15 to 20 minutes, and you can paint right over it, wet on wet.
If the block has some of the original paint, use a red scotch brite pad to scuff up the original color, spray the Acid 8 over any bare metal spots, than spray away with the engine enamel.
You should not need to reduce (thin) the paint, but if you want to get better flow, you can add 10 to 20 % enamel reducer, generally engine enamels are synthetic based, so add synthetic reducer and not acrylic enamel reducer. If by chance the Filling Station brand is acrylic based, than use the acrylic reducer. Generally any brand (PPG, Sherwin Williams, Martin Senior etc)of reducer is compatable with the exception of DuPont, it seems to work only with it's own system. Be careful with the amount you put on with each coat, because the paint will run easier once reduced.
Set the pressure at the gun to about 50 to 55 pounds, if using a syphon gun. That should give you pretty good atomization of the paint, and cut down on the orange peel.

Hope that helps,
Kevin Marsh