VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1929-1932 '32 Sticking Engine -- Help!?

As some may recall, I found my '32 in Louisiana a few years back. It had been restored in the '80s, and still ran okay, with about 3,000 miles since the restoration that included an engine overhaul. I got a fair price and dragged it back to Texas.

It turned over easily and freely with the electric starter when I got it. We changed all the fluids, made some cosmetic improvements, and had fun with it.

Within six months, it started to crank more slowly. Assuming a starter issue, I had my local shop rebuild it. No change.

They recommended heavier ground and power wires. No change.

So, with nothing else to go on -- the car ran fine, once started -- we began supplementing the starter with the crank. I would turn the "Armstrong" crank while Mary hit the electric start. This worked for another six months, but slowly got harder.

Last Spring, after a short drive I went to change the oil and out came chocolate milk. Blown head gasket. Crap.

It was too hot in South Texas to tear into that, so we pushed the car to the back of my shop and played with other (running) cars until last month (October) when it finally got cool enough to work comfortably.

I replaced the head gasket (checked the head and block for cracks first!), put on the new (no more leaks!) Filling Station water pump, replaced the ancient and nearly perished head bolts, painted everything to look purty, and set the valve clearances. Everything was looking good...

Until we tried to turn it over. I could just barely turn it with the crank. The electric was no better. Even together we don't have enough horsepower to turn the engine fast enough to start.

Why? What could be sticking?

With the head off I inspected the pistons,cylinders, and valve train. Everything looked fine. I poured Marvel Mystery oil on top of the pistons and let them soak in that for a week. Just in case.

Valves looked fine. No bent pushrods.

I'm at wits end with this issue. When cranking, it FEELS like something in the drivetrain is engaged, yet the car doesn't lurch when trying to start it. We've got the clutch in and the shifter in neutral!

Thoughts and theories:

1. Could something in the drivetrain not be disengaging? Could a malfunctioning "free wheeling" unit cause this?

2. Pistons. If it were pistons sticking in the cylinders, wouldn't they get looser over time, not tighter?

3.Crankshaft bearings. Can they go so bad that they won't turn? I figured they would get LOOSE if they failed, not too tight?

4. If I remove the oil crankcase, and I look at the bottom of the engine, what could I see that might explain this? Anything? Could something be so cattywampus in there that it could cause a sticking engine?

Anyone got any theories about what I could check? I am running out of ideas!

Thanks,

Jay

Hi Jay

First question:
When you are cranking the engine, is the clutch pedal 'always" depressed or not?

A bad carbon clutch release bearing can drag really hard.

Also, along the same vein...

How much free travel do you have at the clutch pedal?

If you don't have free travel, and your release bearing is bad, it will be dragging all of the time.
Not just when you have the pedal down (although it should get much worse when you do push down the clutch).

We've tried it both ways.

Sorry, are you saying the clutch could be dragging on the engine even with the clutch pedal depressed?
--
Jay

The clutch pedal has too much travel, IMHO. It doesn't engage until it's half depressed, and then doesn't spring back all the way.

Are you saying the clutch could be dragging worse with the pedal depressed?

It is always better to start these older Chevy engines with transmission in neutral and clutch pedal up. If the carbon in the throw-out bearing is worn down then it is metal to metal and lotza resistance to rotation. With the clutch pedal down it also puts pressure on the thrust surface on the center main bearing.

The fact that the pedal does not retract all the way up suggests weak spring(s) on pedal linkage and/or pressure plate. With the transmission in neutral there should not be too much resistance to rotation unless there is a bearing problem in the transmission.

Well, there is plenty of resistance. Like, so much resistance that the starter (and me working the crank) can barely overcome it.

Could a bearing problem in the transmission create this sort of resistance to the engine turning with the car in neutral?

If it drags hard with the clutch engaged AND disengaged with the transmission in gear OR in neutral...AND you have a LOT of free pedal travel...
I'm thinking the most likely place to look is an engine bearing.
Unfortunately.

As Chipper says, it could be a problem with one of two bearings on the transmission input shaft IF the clutch isn't fully releasing even with the pedal fully depressed,

Crankshaft?

If this were happening would not the car try to move when we tried to crank the engine?

Yes it would, if it was in gear.
Which is why I'm thinking the most likely answer is in the lower end of the engine

Hello JayHoneck,
Louisiana and South Texas, Springtime too hot, blown head gasket, melted pistons maybe? With the car in neutral and parking brake off, will it roll easy if you push it? Just to eliminate anything aft from the tranny gears possibly binding. With the car in gear and the clutch pedal pushed to the floor and the parking brake off, will the car roll if you push it? Just to eliminate anything aft from the clutch possibly binding. If these checks are OK, then you could reasonably suspect the problem is in the engine. If pistons melt to the expanded rings during an overheat causing rings to seize, when the engine cools down, wouldn't the pistons and rings bind in the cylinders causing the drag and difficult rotation? Just guessing. I think that the only way to find out is to remove the pistons for inspection. Also with pistons removed, checks could be made on free rotation of cam and crank shafts. I may be full of it, but you did say that you were at wits end. Very much interested to know what you discover, whatever it may be.

I'm assuming that you didn't try to turn the engine over when the head was off. That would have helped narrow down the problem.

I go back to the chocolate milk. Is it possible that something (rust?) got behind the rings and is causing them to bind?

My suspicions are that there is an issue with main engine bearings. If it were a problem due to pistons and rings overheating i think the problem would have shown up very soon after that event.

Even if the clutch disc was stuck to the pressure plate and flywheel or the clutch was not releasing the engine should turn easily with the transmission in neutral.

I do agree with the recommendations to test to eliminate any issues with binding or lock-up in the drive train.

validate if car rolls freely in neutral as normal

if so pull hte oil pan and take a look and see. depends on how long it was run with water in the oil, could have damaged the babbitt in the mains and/or the connecting rods. you can see it all from the underside, and pull a connecting rod cap or to and look at them, and could pull the center main cap to take a quick look. also can look to see if there is any metal or babbitt in the oil pan.

I had a lengthy conversation with owner today. After getting answers to many of my questions I advised to: Remove the oil pan, loosen the rod caps and see if that results in an easier rotating engine. If not then loosen the main caps and check again. I learned a long time ago that a teensy bit of rusting on the crankshaft can dramatically reduce the rotation of the crankshaft. Knowing that the chocolate milky oil drained some time ago means that water was likely circulated and retained between crankshaft and babbitt bearings. He and I are hoping that a small amount of rust is discovered that can be lightly sanded with crocus cloth, put back together and the engine brought back to decent running condition.

If the above does not solve the problem then we will go to step # 2.

Thanks for all of your advice, Chip!

I will do everything you suggested, once I recover from yesterday's gall bladder surgery.
????

I would agree except that this has come on very gradually, over time, dating back to before the head gasket problem.

John at J&M engine rebuilders is theorizing hydro lock caused by water getting on the underside of one or more pistons, due to a cracked block.

Hello JayHoneck,
Hydro lock. Are not all the underside of the pistons and piston rods open to the voids within the crankcase and oil pan? How might one or two cylinders under the pistons trap fluid to block rotation? Now, if the entire engine block was filled with fluid, that might definitely bind rotation. The engine would never be able to operate without blowing fluid out every seal and gasket, or thru the crankcase blow-by tube, in my opinion. Your coolant would be low and not stay level if it was feeding the crack failure. But, let's say that your head is cracked and filing one or two cylinders above the pistons. Wouldn't that liquid/hydro lock the engine? With all spark plugs removed, would you not test for liquid above the pistons and verify wet or dry cylinders? The head gasket problem was not known until you did the oil change, finding out the chocolate milk issue. Therefore, regardless of opinion, it appears that engine teardown seems appropriate regardless of who guesses correctly.

Yeah, hydrolock seems far fetched to me.

Especially considering I just changed the head gasket, and the engine is hard to turn even without any spark plugs installed.

Hello JayHoneck,
Just to cover all the bases with regard to the engine difficult rotation issue, how about removing any subassembly that the engine drives. Items such as the distributor shaft and the fan belt. You might also remove the starter, just in case the bendix gear has failed to retract and is still engaged to the flywheel. With all the external possibilities removed, see if the hand crank appears to turn any more free then before. If you made the checks on the drive train and the spark plugs are removed, you have eliminated all but the internal engine components.

Thanks!

If I can ever get out of this hospital I will be eagerly trying all of these ideas. My gall bladder removal surgery went very sideways, and I've been stuck here for days since...

Hello JayHoneck,
I'm reading 6-8 weeks for normal recovery and no lifting over 10 LBS during all that time. Wishing you a normal recovery. Not wanting you to jump the gun by returning back to the 32 too early, you might still contemplate a plan of action. You could write a checklist of the order of how you would dismantle and organize engine parts and a notebook to record and recall details worth remembering. And of course pictures. Anyway, reviewing your beginning post:
1. Do you recall any loss in oil pressure? yes/no
2. Before the oil change, the engine rotation was an issue, correct?
3. Water in the oil, chocolate milk, correct?
4. Head removed, Marvel Mystery Oil applied. Did you rotate the engine with the head removed? yes/no Was engine rotation still difficult? yes/no
Knowing if the sticking engine still remained with the head being removed narrows the focus and eliminates the valve train all but cam and lifters. Not knowing if any of the checks suggested in this forum have been done yet, based on health issues taking priority, it appears that your checklist starts here at your beginning post. May I suggest that you start a new post seeing as this one is getting kinda long. Good luck and safe recovery.