VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION General Discussions Are we a dying breed?

I agree on the "dying breed" statement. It bewilders me when I see these TV shows that take a beautiful original car of any make and tosses the original parts in a heap to replace them with the modern components. The statement is made often that now the owner will have a "new" car with an old body. These shops appear to do nice work and the autos are enviable. However the price to accomplish this "resto-modding" is often exhorbitant, way out of my range anyhow. Why not go buy a new pony car and have it over with at a usually lower price, with a new car warrenty besides. and leave the classics alone? Aahhh, but to each their own.

Well, all you "dying breed" can just keep on dying, and I'll keep driving my home-built resto-mod at 75 mph all over North America to car shows, swap meets and other auto-oriented events.... AND have a great time doing it! So far I have never been turned away from any event for having a "non-conforming" vehicle, and oddly enough, people still recognize it as a mid-30's Chevrolet.
Say what you will about my resto-mod, but I'm all in at less than $25k. You can't buy a new truck or have as much fun as I'm having for that.

Warning: Open at your own risk. This post is long, wordy and not well written. You should just ignore it. Nonetheless, if you do dare venture to read, it then you have been warned e.g. don't blame me if you're not impressed. After all you'all know I ain't jusrt right anyhow. Do too!

Ken,

I thought that someone better suited would reply to your post above but it looks no one will take up the gauntlet. So, her goes:

First, let me say right off the bat that most all of us restoration and preservation (R&P) dedicated old Chevrolet enthusiasts appreciate a well done modification or personalization (M&P) one. It's merely a difference of opinion of what the end product we hold more dear.

Second. the VCCA's original intent was to be a club for those dedicated to R&P. Maybe not exclusively and certainly not absolute. Some parts may be hard to come by or no longer available or just a small and better minor upgrade or whatever. It is fairly rare to find a ... say 1941 that is purely stock in every single detail but some are out there.

Third, we R&P members and the Club welcome the M&P members. We are not so stuck in the mud to not see that they can have a place at the table without any looking down our noses at their M&P or ostracizing them. Besides we recognize changing of times and, simply put, need your membership.

Fourth, although we may be a dying breed, we sort of resent it when anyone wishes us dead. Going back to the R&P charter of the Club, we may not prefer or embrace what the M&P do but we sure as heck don't wish them their demise.

Fifth, we R&P members may not be as inclusive and see eye to eye with the M&P members but we don't take your pressuring us for inclusion into the club with R&P on our minds as not being friendly. After all, those whose ideas of what their cars must become in order to suit personal originality and power, et al, have actually invaded the club not the other way around. Think about that when you are sipping down the road with your modified car and wishing we old farts would hurry up and dye off.

The above has not been well said. I'm not a accomplished or best educated writer. Nonetheless, I do hope your get the jest of what I'm trying to say. It is my best attempt and well wished and intended response to your instant post. I speak for myself alone and don't dare to say it speak either for the VCCA or any other members thereof. The above thoughts to your instant post are mine alone and I stand by them.

And, another thing, there is something to be enjoyed in R&P that can be enjoyable while at the same time embracing those who are dedicated to speed and modernization or personalization. Think about it.

One more thing and then I'll shut the h..l up. I have a friend that is a retired retired E-T sergeant major who after his retirement went to a body repair school in Nashville, TN. Upon graduation (first in his class) he went to work at in Fayetteville, NC where he plied his trade with outstanding work on a conscientiously engaged, journeyman lever work for 20 some years. He thinks as you do. I embrace him and his friendship "with hoops of steel" as Shakespeare put it in "Hamlet." He helped me with my 1941 Chevrolet cabriolet that I sold this past summer. It needed plenty of body work to bring it back to its original condition. He worked wonders for me. He does no, however, embrace R&P but thinks much as you do about M&P. He has done a 1941 Mercury deluxe coupe, a 1951 Chevrolet 1/2 ton pickup and a 57 Chevrolet BelAir. All the resemblance to their originality is the shape of the bodies. Everything else has been changed out. Complete with upholstery, instrumentation, complete drivetrain (LS something engine) and all the whole nine yards, etc and et al. He is currently working on installing a new wiring harness and turn signals , etc on my 41 cabriolet which is as stock as you can get. He is no R&P but a dedicated M&P as you appear to be. His 57 is at my home while my car is at his. We get along just fine and that is as it is hoped and should be. I do think he wished me dead, though owing to me being such a bother.

BTW: His 51 pickup will probably out run you piece of cra-- well, let me be generous - M&P. Would too!

Best,

Charlie (Yes, and sadly for some I guess, still kickin')

Charlie I couldn't agree with you more! Everyone has the right to do what they want with their cars. Whether to restore them to their original condition or modify them. I personally am not a big fan of 38 Chevys but mine is rare and deserves to be put back to its original glory. I would much rather have a 58 Impala convertible with full length lake pipes, continental kit and a beautiful girl in the passenger seat. My wife says that will never happen as long as she is still around!
Charlie, I for one agree with all you said. I get a kick out of your posts. They are humorous but your point always comes across. I have never met you but I know we would become instant friends. Keep smiling and healthy!

John

Well, I think seeing that the VCCA is maintaining membership our dying rate has not changed. What has changed is the huge increase in P&M vehicles. That in my opinion is expected and fine seeing all the advances in vehicle improvements. I don't see that as a reason to change the club mission-restoration and preservation. As far as the old car hobby in general I do think there is less interest in VINTAGE vehicles .

Yes, we are a dying breed. Most people want the fast flashy cars - heck I want one too.

When I drive my cars out I always let people climb in and take pictures.

At car shows I love to tell parents to let the kids climb in and take pictures. When i get bored I will say look, then point down the way, the owner is coming back then I watch how quickly they can get the kids out of my car....lol

That is funny.

Hi,hello to you all. It has been a while but I'd like to add my two cents. I think the taste for a certain vintage is age related for the most part because of personal experience. And those who embrace vehicles way older than their youth do so for specific reasons whether it is looks (i.e. brass) , engineering or similar reasons. I clearly remember my wife saying she didn't enjoy car shows as much because there weren't any "old" cars anymore. I think the interest in cars is alive and well, it is just that thay look at different years, styles etc. As for resto vs. mod that is definitely an issue of personal preference. I restored a 34 of which there was almost nothing left for the simple reason that my uncle, then my dad had owned it and I had played in it as a kid when it sat abandoned behind my grandpa's equipment shed. I ended up with a relatively good looking car which ran pretty well but that I could not enjoy fully because of where I live.When driving around town people thought I was drunk weaving all over the place trying to avoid potholes and cracks. I could not go on the highway because we live on the notoriously dangerous portion of the Trans-Canada highway which still has only two lanes and carries 2/3 of the cross country truck traffic. So for here, a rest/mod would have been perfect. It would still look like a '34 but get out of everyone's way. Had I lived in the South where there are paved secondary roads, and the most ferocious thing you're likely to meet was a tractor and you can tool around all day at 40mph, a stock restoration is thoroughly enjoyable. And in my case I would have lost nothing of what had belonged to my dad as all there was , was the frame, the steering column and part of the body. This sort of repeats all what is said above but hopefully illustrates how personal all this is. When I tackled the project, a friend had said "Do you realize that this would fit perfectly over an S10 frame?".Maybe I should have listened to him.

If those old cars and trucks were made where they could be driven at todays speeds this conversation probably would not be be happening,I know it was a different time and was way before my time but when I started driving (1977) the older cheap cars that were available could be driven 90 MPH all day long so when I first took my 37 p/u on a trip about 40 miles away I was wondering what did I get my self in to since the engine was screaming trying to keep up with traffic. If it had been available with a overdrive I probably would not have changed anything on it.

JYJ,

This will be short but, I hope, to the point. Here goes:

a. Re the 37 pickup, owing to its mechanical design and antiquity, what in the he-- er, world did you expect?

b. It is worth noting now and then that the VCCA was founded on notion of preservation and restoration and that intent actually remains the main focus of the Club. Nonetheless, owing to the clubs financial viability, it has become necessary to broaden our scope of members. It's like the saying goes, "follow the money" We don't really want you but we do need you (and your money). Accordingly but sadly, the club can no longer practice most any sort of exclusiveness.

c. You see, over time the strong original intent has forced to be of a lesser concern, thus we embrace all old Chevrolet owners even it they bring in their personalize and modified pieces of "art" dedicated solely to speed and modified design. Although, such "art"(?) reminds us of back in the distant past when our moms made us take a healthy dose of cod liver oil. (You youngsters won't remember the joy of that experience.) With accepting this modern "art" we find that pinching our noses shut in order to avoid the awful smell, as we did back then, doesn't help much now with having to accept the "art" mentality. Go figure.

d. Now when the owners of the personalized and/or modified cars feel they are not as welcomed as they think the would be by joining a "hot rod" club, we understand. But some "art" member feelings of being left out or unenthusiastically embraced instead the notion that the club should welcomed them in by it it throwing a party, gala, event or bash (pick one) and then us old guys introducing them to our granddaughters and great-granddaughters goes beyond the pale. It just ain't in the cards or our ability to cope. Good grief!

e. If the above position and unwarranted attitude of "art) practitioners isn't bad enough now, it seems, they can't wait 'til the old farts are die off. The reason for that remains a little foggy but I guess it's because we represent a breed that enjoys the old cars just as they were intended to be and don't embrace modifying them only for the sake of speed and personalization and, thus, be a mental reminder of what nonsensical eyesore and earful pieces of "art" they represent. As long as this old member of the "breed" is still around, my old cars will remain as close to original as I can afford to make then and, perhaps, I, and all other like-minded old breed members, will remain in the slow lane, so to speak. Sorry. But, alas, not to worry. We old farts will die off soon enough. We just don't need no stinkin' encouragement expressed by wishful thinkers to make that happen. Alas, and sadly, time is not not our side.

Best,

Charlie

BTW: It wasn't the preservation and restoration crowd that invaded another club but the "art" crowd that came to us with some bringing their siege weapons and then trying to batter down the wall of the fortress and pillage what the VCCA stands for. Why, is puzzling but anyone should recognize and realize that there needs to be an understanding of what the club represents and, thus, some bit of conformity practiced by those "art" enthusiasts when joining us. Mercy!

BTW2: Well,so much for being relatively shorter than intended but I got on a sort of roll here. Did too!

Ill provide a point of view as a 57-year-old muscle car collector BUT who owns a 1938 coupe. Why do I own it? My father-in-law belongs to a Model A club he drives a 1928. My 60’s muscle cars prevented my wife and I from touring with him and so I went looking for a period car that I could drive and spend time with him. Fit in. Now that I have one, I can tell you from a safety point of view on todays roads the car is a death trap. Now with seat belts, blinkers, LED brake lights, and a 3:73 rear end soon, I feel slightly better about my safety.

If I was a younger man trying to pay for a family and new in my career a car like mine would be a non-starter. Just way too much $ and I would never put my young children in it. If as that young man I had a notion to preserve it, I would encounter enthusiasts who demand top dollar for every part they have. Think they have gold. This is a barrier to entry for some. Personally, I either give parts away to younger folks or at my cost as a way to pay it forward with hopes of keeping the hobby alive through youth.

Those whose pension is a barn full of NOS parts might play a big part in the “dying breed” notion and could very soon have nobody seeking their treasures and go broke. Add to this the generational differences and the individual need to relate to a certain era or time; clubs need to always evolve if they want to stay operational and relevant. Hate to say it but when my Father in Law passes I will sell the 1938 and stay with my safer and more relevant to me 60’s muscle cars.

hurlbird,
"
You lost me when you went the "safety" route. Especially when you included the 3:73 rear end as a safety point. That right there is somewhat puzzling, Is too!

I really don't think the muscle and modified folks understand where us preservation and restoration and why \ we favor originality over so called art in the quest for personalization and modification or "art" folks who seem to be dedicated to speed and horsepower.

It appears after all this time and the sound reasoning put forth by we P&R folks has had no effect. The default position put forth by the P&M faction is to play the safety card. Mercy! Go figure.

i'm tired of trying to explain what the VCCA was originally all about and the noble intent of the club. Accordingly, I think I am done. There will be, it seems, no convincing the younger generation. Owning an old, well maintained, Chevrolet or other make of automobile is engraved in us and will not change. We'll just continue to die off and make everyone who doesn't get it happy. Flying down the highway and in a hurry to get somewhere else will then the way everyone will see the automobile and there will be no restoration and preservation to offer a differing position. Safety? That's merely a crutch to throw up when you can't come up with a logical position to take for maintaining an old car and driving it in a reasonable and safe manner without trying to scare the he-- of the chickens minding their own business whilst pecking alongside the road. Yep!

Best,

Charlie

BTW: A few more posts by those in support for the clubs position in this matter would be welcome. I feel alone out here. Do too!.

Charlie,

These days the volume of traffic and the speed at which people travel on all roads raises the safety issue front and center and cannot be ignored. Keeping up with traffic then becomes a requirement so that you aren't plowed over thus the improved gearing for me (3:73). Dull 6 volt lights, primitive brakes, no blinkers or safety belts add to the dangers. I'm sure you must have felt vulnerable as you traveled a long distance to a vintage car meet when you look in your mirror and see someone parked on your bumper visibly frustrated at your speed. Have you ever pulled over to the let the line of cars behind you get on their way? Its not a card being played but reality. I would also say P&R however can be continued as it is with me and my more modern cars (1960's) that don't have me feeling so vulnerable as my speed is acceptable along with other safety factory features. So owning an old well maintained automobile is still noble and for me desirable it just comes down to the definition of "old". I'm saying for many of us there is old and too old. Too old being not practical or safe to be left entirely original while being enjoyed and driven regularly and on various roadways.

So you're not alone I'm with you in your appreciation of originality, unless you are sticking only to those cars from the 30's or 40's as being the scope of your P&R definition. By the way I have little to no appreciation for Hot rods, but I do for tastefully done resto-mods that allow the owner to enjoy their car daily and even travel cross country should they wish. If you don't drive these cars and they are for display then there isn't much call for safety modifications. I drive a lot.

I will chime in on this one. Hurlbird you are missing the point of this organization. One of my first cars was a 1941 Master deluxe coupe. I went through high school driving it at 70 MPH and had no trouble with it. I had 2 brothers that also drove it after I got other Chevrolets. It was original with no modifications. When I got it it had 38,000 miles on it and when I sold it a couple years ago it had over 95K on it. The 216 engine was never touched other than normal mall maintenance.

You said that you are in to muscle cars of the 60's. Well you can still keep them as they came out of the factory. The VCCA is not about 30;s and 40's cars as you put it, but is a club that strives to keep their cars as original as possible what ever their age.

You can bash all us old folks all you want about our old cars, but jus remember some day soon you too will be old.

John

The "Dull 6 volt lights" can be fixed by using brighter bulbs. The tail light on my 38 is every bit as bright as the one on my 12v pickup. My headlights are more than adequate for night time driving at 55 MPH.

thanks tiny I am following your advice on another thread with success...

John read my comments again. For you to conclude the following response "You can bash all us old folks all you want about our old cars, but jus remember some day soon you too will be old" suggests you missed my statements such as "I would also say P&R however can be continued as it is with me and my more modern cars (1960's) that don't have me feeling so vulnerable as my speed is acceptable along with other safety factory features. So owning an old well maintained automobile is still noble and for me desirable it just comes down to the definition of "old"...

There is nothing personal about any of this discussion other than how we all enjoy our cars. If you take a discussion like this as a "bashing of old folks" you will close your mind and miss another's point of view that could be very important to the survival of the club. Or not. As time goes on and the modern world evolves so must our definition of P&R for some cars/eras. If the leaders of the club don't listen to each new generation of enthusiasts the club is truly destined to be a dying breed which would be shame.

On a personal note i think it was uncalled for to think for a second I would bash anyone in particular old folks.......

My 2 cents worth is keep the old tin looking and behaving like old tin was made to. If you want to go the personalized path there are lots of modern construction frames and fibreglass body copies that are much easier to to reshape.
I like a good personalized car/truck as much as the well restored car/truck but I do hate seeing old tin chopped up to make a personalized vehicle.
Tony

Well, I said my peace earlier but will add this comment......

Where are are the "old" folks, me included, doing with their cars. I know MANY around my area with nice restored and mostly original cars and trucks but it is a RARE occassion when, and if, I see them out. I've been a member of a local club for almost 20 years, been to many car shows, cruise-ins and many benefits. Do I see the "old folks" bring their cars out?? RARELY, and we expect the younger folks to join in when they never see them?

When I can't drive and enjoy mine anymore I will either sell them or give them away...but they will not sit cooped up in a barn, garage or sitting in the living room. Did i mention I have no trailer queens, no matter how much it cost to build them, they are to be enjoyed.
I'm done.

Well, I'm not that old (only 67), but my mostly original trucks get driven regularly. I take one of them out every two or three weeks for at least a 10+ mile drive. To the hardware store, tool store, to visit friends, or just for the fun of the drive. I also pull into various tire stores and have them check the tire pressure. ;-)

I love all the thumbs up and questions I get when I pull into a parking lot. At car shows, I let folks get in and take pictures. I also take my trucks to the local high school auto shop at least once per school year. Each period gets to spend 45 minutes or so looking around, climbing in, and seeing how stuff works when the truck is up on the lift.

I always leave a few G&D magazines at the school and give them out at car shows too.

Plenty of smiles per mile.

Owning, driving, and showing off a vintage vehicle is a socially acceptable way to get attention.

Cheers, Dean

Here is a photo of my family meeting one of Dean's trucks - Lurch. Indeed they enjoyed it!
I had a broken leg or would be in the cab too!

After reading all of this I think we should look at a new class for cars, Enjoyed. If a car is enjoyed it will be cared for and preserved in some state. I agree the VCCA should primarily be for the support and distribution of knowledge regarding original Chevrolets. There needs to be that go to place for each type. I also believe that as with any hobby the next generation needs to me included. I would not be in this hobby if it where not for my first 'hobby' car a 1987 Monty Carlo LS. It is all original except rims and the radio. I was and still am not a mechanic. I started with a running and driving machine from an era I grew up with. A deal came along with a 1941 Chevrolet. I thought this would be a good father son project. It is far simpler to learn on. No complicated electronics and only a basic motor. I have leaned body work, electrical, exhaust, and mechanical work. Best part it was done with my sons. These memories are the main reason I am doing this, not for an accurate restoration. We did not plan to do a 100% restore as we do not have the skills or resources. I have to thank those in this community for the tremendous assistance I we have received. All here have been a great help and kept our project going on-track. Without this help many of the challenges that we faced would not have turned out as well as they did. What we are building is a go get ice cream and have fun car. Smiles per mile is the goal. Anything we have done to the car could someday be undone so the next person could bring it to original.

I would hope that if person X came to the VCCA and said I have a 194X Chevy on an S10 frame, how do I fix the door to look original no-one would withhold help. The body of that car is still original and that is one of this groups expertise. I would not expect the poster to ask that question in an s10 forum. They would need to go to the s10 forum for suspension help as that is the s10 forum's expertise. For all we know this user saved a car that the running gear was beyond repair but the body was salvageable. To me that is one less scrapped piece of history. When I think of these cars they are parts of history preserved.

Sorry if this is kind of rambling on. I do prefer originals when possible. I also really enjoy era correct modified cars, I.E. a 40's era as a 50's hot rod with 50's era correct
upgrade parts. For paint / art I have to say I really like what I have seen on many of the low riders, once again not what I would do to my car but the care and skill to do that work is outstanding.

I agree.
I don’t see the point of taking a classic original body of a vehicle and sticking it out on top of a modern drive train.
If somebody wants that they should just buy a new car.
vintage cars are classic works of art and a part of history.
I would never chop up a car but when I go to car shows nowdays 95% of them are just hot rods and new drive trains.

Note: Signs38 is agreeing with corvaired not Mr87Monty.

But for the inclusion of his boys here, I disagree with him (monte) because I believe the 41s are still rebuildable to original specs, etc.

I'm not a fan of modern chassis as in Mustang and S-10 applications for the front end. There is no pride to be had by me in noticeable modification of any old Chevrolet. Period.

However, before someone bits my head off: It's your car. Do what you want with it. Just don't expect me to stop and marvel at your modified car or truck. It doesn't take me long to just pass on by.

Best,

Charlie

WOW I never thought my original post would open up a can of worms.All I was originally saying and making a comment about was to get the experience of owning and driving an old car some of us go to the expense of restoring it to how it left the factory. It doesn't matter if you drive it once a week or once a month. Personally I like the challenge of finding a NOS part or a rare accessory.
I have nothing against "resto-mods" except when they take an original pristine car that has survived all these years and modify it. Thanks to the endless drivel of car shows on TV this movement has taken hold.
Below is a list of cars I have owned over the past 50 years, all have been original or restored to factory:
1929 model A Ford
8 1956 Chevy's (Nomad,conv,sedan del,two door sedan and hardtop,limousine,ambulance,hearse)
1970 Monte Carlo
1957 Packard wagon
1957 Nash
2 Rambler Marlins
1960 plymouth wagon
1956 Dodge Royal Lancer
numerous Corvairs
and presently a 1960 Canadian Corvair sedan.
Enjoying the comments keep them coming.
CorvairEd VCCA#47508 Dade City Fla

I prefer a car restored to near original condition car but I also appreciate the skill of a modified. A restorable car chopped into a modified I consider a sin as there is many fibreglass copy manufacturers around, leave the original tin to the restorers.
Tony