VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1937-1945 …40 won…t start

My 216 engine with Carter W-1 has been giving me fits. When it runs, it runs great. After it’s warmed up, it rarely starts and easily floods. The fuel percolates in the glass fuel filter bowl, engine “super floods”. There is a swimming pool of fuel down in the plenum/manifold below the carburetor.

There is no “visible” spark with the plugs, contact points. It won’t even cough during starting.

The engine turns over very well, but, engine super flooded and dead ignition. I put in new points set gap to .018, new condenser and still no spark. Rotor is installed and in good shape, rotor cap in good shape. Coil resistance was tested on primary and secondary and “seemed” okay.

I suspect it could be the coil. The engine used to start okay first start of the day, once super warmed up, it won’t start. Also, after operating temp is achieved, the engine misses sometimes, like someone turning off the ignition for a split second.

How best to remove the fuel down in the manifold?

Instead of buying carb kit, ignition parts, any thoughts on what is going on? Should I install carb kit and all new ignition parts?

Thanks,
Curt

Too much fuel? Float pin may not be shutting off the fuel when the bowl gets full. I said "pin" because I couldn't think of needle valve or whatever) Ethanol again. Yep.

No spark? Coil, switch, all related wires including spark plugs, points and condenser. Plugs? Probably not.

Timing? You haven't lost a tooth off the old fiber camshaft gear, have you? Probably not.

Compression? Is the rings on those old dome head pistons wore slap out?

Don't worry too much about it. After all it's only a 40. Just kidding. Those shark teeth rims are just gorgeous. Are too!

Best,

Charlie

I have had two similar situations which was an intermittent lack of spark, hard starting, etc. Did the same thing, replaced the coil, checked the plugs, etc.

Both times it turned out to be the condenser. It always seemed like they would last forever, but for whatever reason, I have replaced more in the last 2yrs.
than I did in the last 40yrs.combined.

Keep us posted to your success with figuring it out.

Bobalouie

I replaced the condenser, but the condenser was bought new about 5 years ago. I will most likely bite the bullet and replace all ignition parts with fresh new parts and install a new carburetor kit.

My hunch is a quirky acting coil.

I’ll let you know what I find.

The raw fuel in the manifold indicates high float level, this maybe caused by worn float needle, dirt under the needle or a sinking float. When this happens try starting with the throttle wide open and be ready to close it when the engine starts.
There maybe an electrical problem as well but clearing the excess fuel is possibley causing some of those problems.
Tony

I bought a new coil today, took the carb off again (just removed both 9/16 nuts and lifted it straight up and over a bit) to get flooded fuel out, reset new points to .018 (the gap was too large, my error), new condenser.
I had several failed starts due no spark, flooded manifold plenum again.
Repeated above again.

I checked again to make sure power was making it to points. It was.
Turned on ignition with points closed and got a screwdriver to separate points. I finally saw a spark. And, I noticed I started to see the ammeter move when ignition was in on position. It didn’t do this with points closed.

I don’t know why everything “woke up” after I moved the points with the screwdriver. I discussed this with Mike Deeter and he said there’s a good chance the points were never closed. Defective points? I wish I could tell y’all definitively what caused the “no start” problem. I’m sure it was a combination of bad points, maybe bad condenser, maybe bad coil, sticking needle in seat of carburetor float bowl. It now starts and runs much better.

I drove it down the road and no misses. Shut it down and restarted it with no effort.

I’ll test drive it again tomorrow.

Also, talked to the good folks at the Fillingstation and he said the “hard starting” problem could be a starter problem. If the starter is getting worn or dragging, there won’t be enough electrical energy left for the ignition components. Makes some sense. But, my starter seems to work well and doesn’t drag.

One more thing. I took the carburetor’s float chamber apart and polished the metering rod, needle and seat, with steel wool. I also cleaned it. I am hoping that may have helped with the flooding, at least for the moment. We’ll see.

Curt

Without looking at my books I feel 0.018 point gap is still a little wide, a lot of 6 cyl cars use 0.016gap, not much different but surprising how much difference it can make. Did you reset the timing after setting the points, point adjustment will affect the timing.
Tony

Even thought the points are tungsten and supposedly corrosion resistant, I have found that after extended lack of use they need to be cleaned. A crisp dollar bill (US) pulled through the points is often enough to get them working well again. Also used the Boss's emery board more than once.

I have found the same thing. Run a point file through the contacts and the problem in solved.

Great advice. I’ll check timing today.
Thanks guys!

Years ago my 41 Town Sedan wouldn't start when I was parked downtown. Points had no gap when cam was on the peak of a high lob. I only had a pair of pliers and a flat tip screwdriver with me (not sure about the pliers). Loosened the points carriage and used a dime to adjust the gap.

Started right up and drove it home.

I didn't know about the dollar thing at the time or I would have run one through the points after using the dime. Didn't have one anyway and didn't know of any Fleetliner that was handy. You can drive a Fleetline and still be considered "somebody." (Re "On the Waterfront.") It's done all the time. Fleetliners are always well heeled and thus have lots of dollars to throw around. Are too.! It was they who triggered the begging words of "Hey, buddy. Let me hold a dollar." You know.

Point here is that having the points opening and closing is more critical then the actual space of the points gap when they are doing so.

Always keep a US dime handy. Face and tail wise, it is just about right on the money. No pun intended. A pair of pliers and a flat-tip screwdriver are just the first of basic tools one should carry in an old Chevrolet. If you are driving a Frod then a roll of baling wire is essential and comes first before the pliers and screwdriver. Just saying.

Best,

Charlie

For those that don't have a set of feeler gauges or a screwdriver or other tools when you need them. Look in you pants pockets. A business card is just about the right thickness for the points. A credit card will set the gap on spark plugs if it slides easily. A dime can be a screwdriver for slotted screws. We have put together a VCCA tour tool kit and given several of them out on tours. A few times people have used them successfully at the side of the road. If it is either walk or ride I prefer to ride.

I'd have guessed needle in carb also. Looks like you cleaned that real good.

Steel wool (00 size) was used to polish the needle. A cotton Q-tip wrapped with a small amount of steel wool was inserted in brass seat and “spun” around. This really put a shine on these parts, plus the metering rod and it’s seat.

Looking back at the “no start” problem, the engine was in need of a tune up.
The ignition problem was resolved by a new coil, correctly set new points, condenser, timing with ball on needle then advanced 8 degrees. I cleaned the carburetor and polished some parts.

Now I just touch the starter and she starts, hot or cold. (With Ethanol gas!)

It’s beautiful weather in Louisiana and I’m taking the 1940 out for s long drive!

Curt

Just jumping in here:

Modern condensers are not made to the same quaility as the old ones. I usually look for NOS 1st, then new.

Cleaning points; my Uncle years ago showed me how to use a matchbook to not only space the points correctly but also used the striker strip to clean the points.

Points are almost always the 1st thing i look to when i have spark problems. Then coil and condenser.

There was an old studebaker i worked on for a friend, he picke up really cheap because the previous owners had done a tuneup and couldnt get the truck running again, we could'nt figure out why he had zero spark for a long time.. I found that the insulator washer on the side of the distributor from the wire to the coil was missing so the wire was gounding on the distributor body.