VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1937-1945 OILING PROBLEMS FOR 216

I finally got my engine running well. Turned out to be leaks everywhere on the intake ports. Shaved the manifolds and voila'. Noticed that the oil pressure seemed to be lower than before the overhaul. Anyway I had to take the oil pan off to install the road tube baffle that turned up missing in the machine shop. The bottom of the pan was covered in thick sludge, the engine only having run a few hours. I suspect the oil passages were not cleaned properly after the block came out of the oven. There's no other place all that mess could have come from. Anyway, I changed the oil and filter after thoroughly cleaning and blowing out the oil manifold and oil pan. I cranked the engine with the ignition off to check flow to the filter. No oil coming into the housing after considerable cranking. The fitting that splits to the filter and the gauge feeds the bearings? Where should I check for pressure and or blockage? No pressure showed on the gauge through turning the engine over. I'm scared to start the engine now for fear of damage to the bearings. Any suggestions as to how to proceed?
Thanks, Roger

The oil pressure gauge line or the oil filter conneection comes off the main oil galery on the side of the block. Would be accurate to check pressure at either place. With cold oil just cranking the engine with the starter may not get oil filling the filter but you should have oil pressure at the gauge with 30 seconds or so of cranking.
I do not understad what you mean by oil coming out of all the manifold ports.????
At cranking speed with the spark plugs removved you should have about 10 to 15 pounds of oil pressure with cold oil.....like 10W-30 oil.

The manifold leaks were unrelated. They were solved last week. I will remove the plugs and check the pressure.
Thanks, Roger

The manifold leaks were unrelated. They were solved last week. I will remove the plugs and check the pressure.
Thanks, Roger
Just got in from cranking with plugs out. Needle barely moved. I know the pump is new and was working. The gauge is new also and was working earlier this month. Seems like the more I've run the engine, the less oil pressure it has. Not a surprise though considering all the gunk I found in the pan.

I just pulled the gauge and filter lines off the block fitting. No sign of a plug so I put 10 lbs pressure on the gauge. Showed exactly 10 lbs. So I
cranked again. No pressure again. Also pulled the oil line from the bottom of the filter to the oil distributor. Line was clean, as was the hole in the block. If the pump feeds the oil galley, shouldn't I be able to find pressure at the hole on the front of the oil distributor? I wish I could find a good diagram of the oil circulation pattern. I'm guessing on much of it.
Roger

Here are some ideas to consider.

Based on your description of what was in the oil pan it would not surprise me if there was dirt in the oil distributor valve. That would hold the valve open and prevent pressure building.

Many of us make an oil pump "drive shaft" and put it in a drill to pre-lube an engine after it has been taken apart. Mine is an old cheap big straight bit screwdriver. I cut it off at the handle and had to grind the tip some to fit into the oil pump shaft. You might want to consider doing that to save wear on your starter and battery. I agree it is extra work to remove and re-install the distributor but it works great especially for troubleshooting like you are doing.

Have you checked the oil pump strainer and pump inlet for debris?

The screen had a bit of trash on it but not much. I blew it off easily. I saw nothing unusual on the pump. It was clean looking. Can I blow out the oil distributor in reverse somehow without taking the pan off again? If it is dirt in the oil distributor valve, isn't that accessible from the outside under the distributor cover. Is there also a chance of possibly clearing the distributor of trash by running the pump with a drill? I appreciate any ideas that enhance my chance of solving the problem in the simplest manner.
Roger

There should be a small plate on the driver's side of the block that is removed to access the distributor valve.

I tested things for oiling today. Cold start, the highest pressure without absolutely racing the engine is 15 lbs. My 70 year old engine had that much pressure. On the positive side, the filter filled with oil after it ran a few minutes. Engine at operating temp , pressure about 7 lbs at around 1000 rpm. At idle about 2 lbs. I'll give things a chance to work out before tearing into the engine. Please let me know what you think.
Roger

Those pressures are okay if you are using 10W-30. Might be higher with 30 weight but will result in smaller oil particles to lubricate piston pins and cylinder walls. As long as the pressure does not go to zero the engine is okay.

Wth cold 10W-30 the oil pressure gauge should almost peg momentarily after start-up at 1000 RPM and then slowly drop to mid gauge as it wams up. At hot idle should be 7 or 8 ponds on a 1940 and up engine. A sudden drop in pressure may be caused by the relief valve in the oil pomp sticking open

Oil filter path of oil flow.
The oil enters the filter via the line attached to the side of the filter. Supply taken directly of of the main oil gallery on the side of the block. The entering oil passes through the filter element and the filtered oil exits the filter via a small opening in the hollow center tube. There is a small opening n the tube an inch or two from the bottom of the filter. When the oil exits through this hole via the line on the bottom of the canister it merely just passes through the side of the block and and returns to the oil pan.

Roger,

Having a hard time wrapping my head around your first post. Exactly what was overhauled in your "freshened" engine? You have had vacuum problems which were probably caused by the misalignment of the manifolds as they were mated to the block. Having it shaved by the machine shop probably was not necessary, whoever remounted the manifolds lucked out with the correct alignment.

There is no logical reason for an overhauled engine to have any sludge in the oil pan, etc. The copper oil line that feeds the rocker assembly is easily neglected in a engine rebuild, was yours replaced, or cleaned out? It is normal after 80 years for the line to be full of oil deposits if the engine was not well maintained. Would that impair oil pressure?

Fortunately, all of the issues you have been having are documented in past posts. Have you used the SEARCH process for assistance? Could your old Carb been okay? Have you tried it after correcting your distributor and your manifold problems?

Unfortunately, only being mechanically inclined, and having a lot of good luck, is not always enough to rebuild an engine. You are finding out that experience, a knowledge base, and a willingness to do a lot of primary research is also needed.

Good luck, Mike

P.S. Fortunately, there are a lot of "been there done that" experiences amongst our chat site members so we all can enjoy this wonderful hobby.

Hi Roger,

Thanks for continuing to come back to VCCA Chat and ask for help. As Mike noted, most of us have BTDT (Been There Done That).

I do want to echo a similar sentiment to Mike's regarding what level of work was really done to your engine. I reviewed quite a few of your prior posts. There seem to have been a lot of issues along the way.

Like Mike I was surprised when you noted how much dirt/sludge was in the oil pan when you removed it recently. That also makes me wonder about the condition of the oil pump.

One point that Gene often reminds us is that the end plate gasket thickness is critical to the performance of these oil pumps. If someone made a gasket of thicker material or tried to seal it with some type of silicone gasket maker that extra clearance allows a lot of oil to bypass the gears.

Given all the other "gotcha's" along the way you might want to check that.

Mike. I'll take it item by item. I took the gaskets and sleeves out of the manifolds, bolted them to the block, torqued them from center to outer. I could slip a .035 gauge between the block and places on any exhaust. About .015 between most intake ports. I separated the manifolds and checked the straightness of the separate manifolds. Unbolted the differences were even greater. So I checked the head for straightness. It was perfect. So I bolted them back together and had them shaved even. Put them back on with new gaskets and it purred like a kitten. By the way, these were not the original manifolds I had used for years. I had broken an ear off the exhaust flange, so I replaced the pair with one I had bought about 15 years ago. My mistake-not checking their straightness.

Second item. The engine, a '50 216, fully 70 years old, was worn out. I had all the machine work by a local automotive machinist with over 6p years experience. No expense or time was spared. Everything is new that could be replaced from the radiator to the gas tank. He uses a n oven to clean blocks and heads etc. When I got my engine back, unassembled, it looked like a factory new. So I dusted it with my hair hose and put it together. One point of concern while reassembling was the oil distributor. I was told there is no need to replace it if it was working,and it was,so I didn't. After running the engine for a few hours, I noticed the pressure was just not the same as even on the 70 year old engine. Then I dropped the pan to replace the draft tube baffle that was lost at the macine shop. The heavy, black sludge caked in the bottom of an otherwise pristine oil pan shocked me. It came from hidden places. And lots of it too. I'd estimate around a fourth cup or more. All lines in the engine were replaced so it didn't come from them. I'm just glad I discovered it.

Finally, the old carb was at least 20 years from a rebuild when I sat it it on a shelf for eight months. It was running then but after storage and cleaning, and a kit it would not even start the engine. After rebuild by a pro, it ran but not perfectly That's where cam timing came to mind. Just a little roughness at all speeds, especially idle. Also had Chipper test it. Turned out good for him. So I took a different tack with diagnosis and used WD40 on the intake ports. The rest is history. One lesson I'll never forget- don't use propane gas to detect an intake leak. It blows away with the engine running.
On former posts, I never posted a question without first trying the search features. Not only here, but other sites also. I admit a lack of patience in sifting through pages and pages of references unrelated to the problem except through one extraneous word such as "bolt" or "problem".

I appreciate everyone's help on this project. Maybe I can pay it forward.
Regards, Roger

Roger,

Thanks for updating us on the process you went through to do your repairs. It paints a much clearer picture on your troubleshooting journeys. For others making your journey I wish to provide the follow old posts:

Exhaust intake manifold spacer

216 Lack of oil to rocker shaft

Reinforcing the use of our SEARCH process

Good luck, Mike

Mike. I'll take it item by item. I took the gaskets and sleeves out of the manifolds, bolted them to the block, torqued them from center to outer. I could slip a .035 gauge between the block and places on any exhaust. About .015 between most intake ports. I separated the manifolds and checked the straightness of the separate manifolds. Unbolted the differences were even greater. So I checked the head for straightness. It was perfect. So I bolted them back together and had them shaved even. Put them back on with new gaskets and it purred like a kitten. By the way, these were not the original manifolds I had used for years. I had broken an ear off the exhaust flange, so I replaced the pair with one I had bought about 15 years ago. My mistake-not checking their straightness.

Second item. The engine, a '50 216, fully 70 years old, was worn out. I had all the machine work by a local automotive machinist with over 6p years experience. No expense or time was spared. Everything is new that could be replaced from the radiator to the gas tank. He uses a n oven to clean blocks and heads etc. When I got my engine back, unassembled, it looked like a factory new. So I dusted it with my hair hose and put it together. One point of concern while reassembling was the oil distributor. I was told there is no need to replace it if it was working,and it was,so I didn't. After running the engine for a few hours, I noticed the pressure was just not the same as even on the 70 year old engine. Then I dropped the pan to replace the draft tube baffle that was lost at the macine shop. The heavy, black sludge caked in the bottom of an otherwise pristine oil pan shocked me. It came from hidden places. And lots of it too. I'd estimate around a fourth cup or more. All lines in the engine were replaced so it didn't come from them. I'm just glad I discovered it.

Finally, the old carb was at least 20 years from a rebuild when I sat it it on a shelf for eight months. It was running then but after storage and cleaning, and a kit it would not even start the engine. After rebuild by a pro, it ran but not perfectly That's where cam timing came to mind. Just a little roughness at all speeds, especially idle. Also had Chipper test it. Turned out good for him. So I took a different tack with diagnosis and used WD40 on the intake ports. The rest is history. One lesson I'll never forget- don't use propane gas to detect an intake leak. It blows away with the engine running.
On former posts, I never posted a question without first trying the search features. Not only here, but other sites also. I admit a lack of patience in sifting through pages and pages of references unrelated to the problem except through one extraneous word such as "bolt" or "problem".

I appreciate everyone's help on this project. Maybe I can pay it forward.
Regards, Roger

Roger,
You don' know how glad Dean and I have become since you discovered the intake leaks. All my experience pointed to intake leak. My sanity and use of combustible liquid to test for intake manifold leaks verified.

Chipper, thank you for helping me. Thank God for WD40 and second hunches.
Regards, Roger

could the sludge have come from petrol getting into the pan turning the oil into a tar like sludge you have been trying lots of carbs on it playing with the mixture settings and the rings wont be bed in yet
I would think if you had the engine done up they would have cleaned it sounds like they have cleaned it
you still need to work out your low pressure problem
is it worth cleaning sup and tryig again with new oil

You could have a valid hypothesis there. I did clean out everything and replaced oil and filter. You are with me on the pressure issue too. I want to solve it.
Roger

is it a new oil pump or a old one if old did it work ok before there's not much jn a pump 2 gears is it worth pulling it apart to check gears etc while sump is off good luck

It is a new oil pump. I just installed it right out of the box. It is a Melling 11. Unfortunately I buttoned it up after cleaning the goop out of the pan and installing the baffle for the road draft tube.
Roger

In ther words the pressure was lower AFTER you installed the new oil pump......correct?

are you able to bypass filter