VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1929-1932 Antifreeze

There is a recent article in Auto Restorer on anti freeze to use in the old cars. the antifreeze will attack gasket material and traditional cooper joints.
Extended lifeantifreeze which utilizes Organic Addative Technology (OAT, H-Oat,or N-Oat) as one of the chemicals never be used in cars over 10 years old.

Does anyone have any information on this. Think in a past post Chipper indicated he developed formulas for antifreeze .
used prestone for years in the older cars. Article indicates all prestone and Zerex G-05 in Gold container should not be used.


thank you Dave

Fantastic question Dave. I've been thinking about this myself and posting the same question for Chipper.
All my modern cars use HOAT from the factory and they are in the 13-15 year old range. Had only thought about metals like brass/copper maybe not playing nice with the HOAT but hadn't thought about gasket materials. Hmmm.

I have been using extended life antifreeze for 18 years with no problems. Currently using one from Tractor Supply as it is compatible with all colors of antifreeze of which there are many. It will be interesting to see what Chipper has to say.

It is difficult to make an informed response without being able to read the article. While it is true that I did work on antifreeze/coolants it has been a long time. So I have to rely on some of the still working people to better understand the limitations of modern coolants.

I have been using modern coolant formulations in old cars since the mid 80s, and I am still waiting for a radiator to get eaten. It doesn't seem to be happening. I'll keep watching. I believe the problem comes from leaving the antifreeze in too long. Change it every 2 years or so and all will be fine. Chevrolet had you leaving DexCool in 5 years, and they had problems. It is just too long.

People who left their antifreeze in forever had rotten radiators (and rotten aluminum heads) in the old days too, before anyone ever thought of these new formulations.

In searching the internet I see lots of third and fourth hand warnings about gaskets being eaten but nothing first hand. Lots of the articles available are the fluff written by magazines for non-technical car owners so don't say much more than RTFM (Read The Fine Manual). The modern coolants appeared on the market at the same time manufacturers just started using plastic based intake manifolds and water outlets. Growing pains with these plastic parts warping and leaking were initially blamed on the "new" coolants eating gaskets and these stories and finger pointing keep circulating so the true culprit may never be known.

Curious what Gene and the Dog have to say and really surprised this topic hasn't been beaten to death like 10w30.

Since Chipper didn't have any immediate glaring concerns, this might be a question directly for the gasket manufacturers themselves.

The change in inhibitor packages in antifreeze was mostly due to the increased use of aluminum. Aluminum radiator cores, heads, blocks often with ferrous metal and maybe a little copper or brass touching the coolant made the change necessary. Aluminum will be the sacrificial anode unless protected. Rapidly corroding a radiator core is not acceptable. The other driver was extended life for all fluids and parts. The use of overflow tanks dramatically reduced the oxygen in cooling systems as they were liquid full. That changed from an aerobic to anaerobic cooling system. Much different corrosion environment. Most leaks were due to instability of parts not eating away gaskets.

A caution: Be sure that any coolant and particularly "extended life" coolants specify use in "all" engines before putting in our old Chevys. Some of the inhibitor packages designed for aluminum containing cooling systems are not compatible with brass and copper parts.

Thank you all for the input.
Think the key is for the label that reads for "all engines" as Chipper indicated.
One recommendation is to drain the system each spring and go back to water as they were designed for the summer,
and refill to propel levels with antifreeze in winter. gonna try this in the 30 this year and see difference in temperature during summer heat.
Couple of the newer cars, 60 and 69 will continue to run year round but change more often.
Keep eye out for any updates or new information.
Thanks Dave

Suspect you should avoid straight water.
Nasty on the cast iron block so needs a corrosion inhibitor, needs a water pump lubricant and has a lower boiling point than any coolant. The water idea does make me think it may make sense to choose the "best coolant" you can research for the cast engine but just use it at the most diluted percentage recommended. And change it frequently....

Modern engines and their cooling systems are designed to use antifreeze/coolant year round. The engines from ~50s back were designed for water. Antifreeze addition started in the 19 teens with alcohol (mostly methanol but some ethanol), glycerine and similar freezing point depression chemicals. By the 20s "permanent" antifreeze (ethylene glycol based) was developed by DuPont (Zerex). I don't know when it began but by the 60s ethylene glycol antifreeze was factory filled and each manufacturer had their own specifications. The manufacturer's recommendations were to replace the antifreeze every two years. It was never highly publicized in the US. The two year change was well known in Europe. Same for changing brake fluid. Also important is to use either distilled or de-ionized water to dilute coolant. Rain water is also basically mineral free. Even though I recommend at least draining and refilling with fresh coolant every two years I don't always do it. The basic reasons for the change is: with heat and oxygen ethylene glycol will slowly form oxalic acid. A little can be a rust remover but also corrosive. The inhibitors in coolants will also be depleted over time. Those are to neutralize the acids (oxalic, carbonic) and passivate the metal surfaces. Water is a an excellent lubricant but a bit better with ethylene glycol added (or other surface active agent).

thanks again for all the assistance. do use a water pump lubricant in the older chevy, plan on using in others also!
as Chipper indicated, need to do a better job and change antifreeze in the other cars. Was also planning to pull radiators in other cars and have them gone through.
Especially before the gentlemen found that does a good job on radiators retires. Thanks Dave

I've browsed a bunch of websites including BITOG (Bob Is The Oil Guy) where every automotive product gets discussed to death and back again, often with test results and data.
Coolant/Antifreeze is a topic that just gets little feedback at all. I figured we'd get a bit more discussion here.

What I found was that each brand of coolant can be very, very different than the rest and that some of the modern coolants are meant for sealed, pressurized systems and really don't like exposure to open air as they are in vintage vehicles. There could be some really good modern coolants that will work well, but you need to research the specific brand for compatibility.

The KISS principle seems to apply here - find basic old Green Coolant if you can, use distilled/deionized water with it, use it as diluted as you can and change it frequently.

In my brief searching I did stumble upon a rad petcock that had a built in Sacrificial Anode which I though was interesting; though being zinc likely intended to protect the alloys in modern cooling systems.

Tim the discussion could go on a long time as over the years there have been lots of changes in the "coolant" industry. In the 1960's when I first started in the parts business the typical antifreeze was green ethylene glycol based. At retirement time ( 2011 ) there were green,orange, purple, red, yellow, pink and probably other colors that are specific to certain OEM recommendations. Unless one was a chemical engineer and took the time to do an analysis then it's best to stick with what the OEM recommends. I have seen coolant systems that were not properly maintained and had cylinder liners pitted completely through in less than 50000 miles. Some OEM's today sell coolant products that will last for 750000 miles with no additive additions. I tried using Caterpillar long life antifreeze in my 32 and though it did not deteriorate I found it more difficult to keep hoses etc from leaking. I am now using antifreeze from Tractor Supply ( Traveler) which is a long life antifreeze (150000-5 years) and is compatible with most other types including OAT based mixes as it has an Oat inhibitor in it.

You all are going to talk this thread to death. Are too.

Just go to the local parts store or WM and get you enough 50/.50 to fill your engine's coolant capacity. Check it every couple ytears for freeze specks. Add as necessary.

This is not rocket science and you don't have to trace every lead concerning what and which anti-freeze is best for this and that.

The old cars don't give a crap about what antifreeze you use. As Gene and others have advised over the years 50/50 is just fine.

Don't worry yourself sick over this minor issue. It's a waste of time.

Good motoring.

Charlie

I agree with the above concerning both motor oil and anti-freeze. I have used "modern" antifreeze in my old cars with no problems and the same for motor oil including synthetics. Either one is far better than what was available 20, 40 or 60 years ago.

Gene,

As usual, you're right on.

Best,

Charlie