VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND NEWER 1961-1964 Verifying Original Equipment

When buying a restored car how do you check to determine if the equipment it now has (engine/tansmission etc.) was original equipment when the car was built?

Thanks

I doubt anyone can answer that question in less than 12,000,000,000,000,000 words.

..............unless you can be more specfic about the car in question.

Sorry, that question just made my head spin.

FIRST, ask for original documents that came from the dealer.
SECOND, ask for pictures of the car BEFORE restoration. (not before it's 3rd restoration - before it's first restoration)

Verne

Is there a tried-and-true accepted or preferred method for checking for "matching numbers"? What components constitute whether the vehicle meets the criteria? For instance, my Bel Air has original engine and probably 99% of everything else, but the Power Glide tranny is "AAMCO Blue" (drat!). It's the same model tranny as it came from the factory with, but probably not the same actual component. Does this make it not original?

Matching numbers first of all would be all casting numbers correct for year of car....and the date codes on all castings/parts would be from about one to two months before the assembly date of the car.The date codes are done in various ways....If your transmission is a rebuilt, the rebuilder could have rebuilt the original PG and painted it the color to identify it as their rebuilt...If the rebuild was done in the later years (after car was 10 years old) they probably would not have had an exchange unit in stock and would have rebuilt the original...If the date is way off you would have matching numbers except fot the transmission.For most reasons this would not be the end of the world.Very few clubs judge cars beyond the engine number.Would be more important to me (if I worried about dates) to have the easily seen numbers match such as generator,intake manifold, radiator, etc....just my thoughts.

Ahh, so there's a chance it IS the original and if not, it may still be a numbers match as long as it's a casting from the same year.

I'll have a closer look at the casting number while the motor is out and see if I can decipher it. There's hope, although the Power Glide tranny had a long run, from early '50's into the '70's I believe.

The 1958 PG should have 3742349 and 3742350 on the case and adapter.I didn't look in a newer parts book (will later) but the case may have been the same thru 1962..( 8 cyl).The 1958 PG, especailly the early ones, had many problems that were corrected with up-dates later.What month was the car assembled?
The name Power Glide was used for many years but the transmission had many changes for 1958.It 1963 it was completely new ('62 with 327) with an aluminum case, etc....but all drove about the same.
The 1958 348 (heavy) and Power Glide(heavy) often settled down in the front and it was necessary to replace the coil springs.
In general 1958's had many problems and I would have never believed there would be any aroung 48 years later.Still one of the best looking cars Chevrolet produced.

Would not be too difficult to add Power Steering - or to make steering easier install a 1959-64 non -PS steering gear.It had a lower ratio (more turns) but made parking more effortless.If your were ever to install radial tires it would be a must.

I've inadvertently hijacked Asquared's discussion, so I'll try to contribute to the original subject.

There are lots of materials available on line to find out what was available from the factory back in the day it was built, so these are a good place to start learning what you should expect to see. I'd check some of the links on the VCCA page, there's bound to be something there. I also do well using keyword searches on Google, just type in whatever you're looking for, like "1961 Impala factory options" and you're on your way.

Of the options packages available, there may be as many as 12 to 16 different standard configurations just for the full size line, i.e. Impala, Bel Air, Biscayne, Delray etc. Most would consider any factory options as original if they were offered for that model in that year. (If I can get the actual power steering from another car of the same year I can install it properly into my car and it's considered by most to be authentic even if it wasn't installed in my car at the factory. Conversely, a Biscayne might have had an available V-8 engine, but probably not with a Tri-Power setup and definitely not with fuel injection, so these options wouldn't be likely to be considered original even though Chevy offered them for other models in the full size line.)

There are flags to be aware of when shopping for a "restored" vehicle. Taking note of these would be helpful before you go to look at the car. For instance, generators are commonly swapped out of vintage cars in favor of alternators. The venerable 350 motor was introduced in the '60's I believe, but is often dropped into older vehicles whose mill was just "too tired" or as an upgrade to an inline 6 cylinder, powerful for it's day but not capable of producing the 250-300 horsepower of the more modern motor.

If you do your homework and know what you should see, you can determine if your "restored" vehicle is really that or if it would be defined as "customized" with aftermarket options.

That's an intro, with about six quadrillion words to spare!

The options for 1958 would have been available for any model.A cheap Del Ray could have had a 348 tri-power,air conditioning, Level Air,Turboglide, and air conditioning if the buyer wanted....Doubt if any were made with this package but would have been possible.

To the original question before I hijacked it, this was in regard to a resto '61-64, model unknown.

Is it just safe enough to say that if it (meaning any accessory or optional configuration) was offered in the year of manufacture and the casting numbers match the year produced, it can be considered original?

Is Asquared still out there to amplify his question with specific info?

What is your definition of "original"?
Aren't you really talkng about "period authentic"? as in...............it "could" have been.????????????

As long as I live, I will be convinced there are only about 10% of the people in the hobby who really know the definition of "original". And it is such a very precious thing to behold - it can be changed or erased so quickly and easily. Why don't we honor it and learn from it so that we can pass on real cars to future generations?

"Now, if I put this car together from 97 different sources and the dates all match, it's ""numbers matching"" and ""original"" right"?????

Give me a break.

And slip a fake tar top cover over the battery.

Wrong...A vehicle is original only once. After that it's restored original...or modified or what ever. Matching numbers means all the original pieces that it left the factory with. You can guess at all the dates & get it close & it may or may not be the correct dates as when it left the factory. The only way you find out if your right or not is if you run into a 100% original unrestored car.....Joe

I believe Verne was making "light" of the original....A car can be original and will have matching numbers...or can just have matching numbers assembled from piles of used parts.Some difference.

My '57 began life as a 283 with PG.At some time in its life it had a 4 speed and 327.Was later converted back to original drive train.All parts are correct for a 1957 but have all different dates.This has never been noted in VCCA judging, I enjoy the car, and thats good enough for me.

I do admit it is a phrasing error on my part to mix the terms "original" with "period authentic". The latter is easier to confirm with some study while the former to my mind is extremely difficult if at all possible. The former is also easier to recall and rolls more easily into conversation.

Which goes to the original question again - is there a trustworthy reference to verify a vehicle's equipment as Original with a capital "O"? The best service history documentation would still seem to leave gaps inviting doubt. Original dealer's Bill of Sale and window sticker will likely list options but not serial numbers, especially for small things like starter, distributor, coil, etc. Factory assembly checklists would not likely track every detail, not foreseeing the need to verify smaller components a quarter-century later.

So is the term "Original" in it's purest sense doubtful at best? Are skyrocketing auction prices for collectible vehicles giving rise to increased incidence of fraudulent claims of "Original Equipment".

It seems one can verify only so much, but when we're talking about a quarter-million dollar 409, how sure of it's "100% Originality" can we truly be?

:confused: :confused:

in the Corvette hobby, "matching numbers" and "original" are NOT synomous. Many big buck restored midyear vettes are advertised as matching #(which means the casting #, casting date, and stamp pad data are the same #'s that were on the orignal engine when the meidyear left st. louis). matching #'s rarely means the engine case is the original. it implies someone has found a block that has a casting # and a casting date appropriate for the midyear in question. it also implies that the restorer has decked the replacement matching #'s engine's stamp pad then restamped the pad with the machine assembly data and the vin # of the midyear vette its to be installed in. When one decks the stamp pad to remove the passenger car stamp pad data, one looses FOREVER the factory horizontal broach marks which are impossible to recreate in a manner identical to the flint or tonowanda broaching process, when examined under magnification. Examination of broach marks is what i hang my hat on when judging or considering buying a vette advertised as having its original engine. mike

There is no know way to know what factory options came on a 1958 (or '61) with out the factory invoice or window sticker.In the mid '60's some times the build sheet could be found between the gas tank and body or under a seat if you were lucky.The 1958 and prior did not have the window sticker with prices, etc.There was a sticker applied to the right side of the windshield listing the options,dealer shipped to, and some production numbers .I have the window sticker from the 1957 that I purchased new.The sticker, along with some smaller inspection stickers, was removed during new car clean-up, and the owner never saw them.
The parts such as the distributor and generator all have dates and part numbers on them but could also not be original.
It was not completely uncommon for the dealer to remove an item the the buyer did not want, such as power steering or brakes, and swap with another car....or install P/S from a different car that was in stock.

Verne's head is probably still spinning and we're still not talking about a specific model or year. We're closing in on those 12 quadrillion words and he's looking pretty smart for staying out of the discussion after the first response.

I hate to belabor the point but I'm really enjoying this discussion. I took the bait and now I'm learning the lesson. From many instructors. And I think I've already shown I'm not one to let my lack of expertise keep me from exponding at length.

Literally stated, an original in the truest sense practically has to have been preserved as pristine in a hermetically sealed climate-controlled environment, as most restorations are not likely to be disassembled, cleaned and polished and re-assembled with all the original parts. This is not the car that was really ever a daily driver and not the investment for the enthusiast who wants to take their low-mileage classic out on sunny days for a drive in the countryside.

So it doesn't sound too likely for the buyer of a restored vehicle to even hope to see what could be considered "Original" in it's true sense. Out of respect for this rarest of birds, and for the little old lady from Pasadena who drove it home from the dealer, parked it in the garage and never took it out again, one should probably hesitate to even use the "O" word.

"Period Authentic" with "Matching Numbers" is really closer to what Asquared is asking about when he asked:

"When buying a restored car how do you check to determine if the equipment it now has (engine/tansmission etc.) was original equipment when the car was built?"

These items, motor and transmission etc., are not serialized like the body's VIN to distinguish them individually from one another beyond the approximate casting date. Broach marks, which I'm guessing is the simultaneous striking with a marking tool of mated component surfaces and the vehicle's frame (which I'm assuming since Corvettes' bodies are formed in fiberglass), are used on some low-production models (still assuming as 'Vettes are produced in the 10's of thousands max versus multi-hundreds of thousands for passenger car models).

The factory invoice or window sticker, if available, will list the factory accessories. Your local classic parts seller, or maybe a Chevy dealer if they have a sense of history, can refer to parts catalogs for the model year to obtain casting numbers. This matching of casting numbers will confirm to a confidence level of period authenticity or blow it completely out of the water if a component was cast after the date the car rolled off the assembly line.

broach marks are the fine graining or lines that are scratched onto the left and right decks of a chevy engine as it undergoes its maching processes prior to assembly at the engine plants. these horizontal broach marks are on all unmolested engine pads(the rectangular pad on the pass side front of the engine just below and in front of the front lower surface of the pass side engine head). broach marks, factory that is, run front to rear whereas the average maching shop has access to a rotary broach that they'll use to true up the deck surface of a block that may be warped. obviously, the rotary broach marks impart a circular graing or scrath effect to the engine decks(and the stamp pad). the old 235 6 cylinders also have broach marks where the engine serial # is stamped, just behind the distributor on the 235's engine stamp pad. mike.

PS; SB AND BB chevy engine stamp pads where masked prior to chevy engine orange application, hence the pads were unpainted when they left Flint or Tonowanda. mike

Thank you everyone who took the time to expand on this subject. I learned a lot. I was thinking about period authentic and matching numbers. Again thanks.

I learned a thing or two dozen just by having people correct what I said! (Enough to write a book if I hadn't already!) :rolleyes: :o

I hope there's not going to be a test on this later!