VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND NEWER 1955-1957 Judging question

Do the judges check to see if a '57 283 should have a 2 or 4 bbl carb.?

Or if it should have a duel or single exhaust?

Yes-they are up to par there....If it has a 4 barrel they will know it should have dual exhausts,etc......But if the ID number isn't checked you could have a 265 with a 283 4 Bbbl. and dual exh. and sneak by...I have a friend with such a set up and never gets detected...He did bore out his 265 to 283 though.

Sticking up for the judges a bit, in that I have judged at VCCA 'regional' meets (now apparently called 'national' meets) since the late 1970's - it's possible to miss such things.

When I'm the 'team leader' on the judging team I'm on, I try very hard to be sure each member of the team is assigned his area of 'expertise' - engine or exterior or interior etc. Sometimes we wind up without an 'expert' in a given area and then I tell my team members that if they have a 'question' we seek should each other's advice / opinion and then just do the 'best we can' at determining the answer. Basically that's all we can do.

I also think it's important to say that someone who intentionally attempts to deceive the judges shares 'responsibility' in all this also. It doesn't seem to me that it's "fair" to intentionally set out to deceive the judges. That is, it doesn't seem "fair" to see what you can 'sneak' by with.

Bill.

:) :) :)

Judging is no easy task.For the small time alloted there are many things to "judge"..

As far as engine numbers go the owner is supposed to fill in the engine number (ID stamped number) in the space on the judging sheet...wonder if it ever gets "decoded"

Your question about actually 'decoding' the engine number is a darn good one, Gene.

I presume it's like a lot of things - sometimes it is done and sometimes it isn't.

Bill.

evaluating the data on the small block(and big block for that matter)chevy engine cases is a no-brainer. its either correct or isn't. vcca should include the suffixes of the engine case pads for all judges before the judging begins.the pad data is radily available.mike

Mike,
Talk to the Judging Committee. I tried to get the engine codes added to the information that was available to judges without success. They told me that it was too difficult and would take too much effort to get for all vehicles and classes. Since some years and models (like late 60s and 70s Camaro) have so many engine transmission combinations they dictated it be put off until ?????. I was more than upset but only a lone voice in the woods. I understand that volunteers need to do the work and there are a limited number. I agreed to do the early years and even put together a listing for early 70s. Even with that effort I was not successful so I decided not to waste any more time.

chip: i submitted, to vcca, the 63 thru 67 vette data a couple years ago that included suffix pad data. like you, i got little positive respose. it would take a couple hours for me to input the 53 thru 67 vette engine pad sufix data and it would be done. it wouldn't take a neurosurgeon to git er done. mike

No, but a surgeon just the same.

It appears to me the club, the VCCA, is more interested in the "older" cars. It appears they don't much care about the '55 and on up cars where this engine data info is more 'complex' and therefore more of a 'hassle.'

And yet we have some guys who are willing to do the 'background' work to make this less of a hassle.

Interesting.....

Well, back to my original point: I've long thought the club is much more "interested" in the four cylinder cars and 'earlier' six cylinder cars.

Maybe those that have other interests, like the V-8 cars for instance, should understand that. And, maybe, act accordingly.

Bill.

I don't for a minute believe that the club is more interested in the 4 and early 6 cylinders. In fact I feel that it is going just the opposite direction. Most of the cars that you see at meets, picnics, local tours, etc. are V-8s. Just open the last few issues of the G&D and count the cars pictures. Also include the listings of Chevys registered at the meets in past issues.

I own several from '55 to '72. I have restored three of them and have three more in progress. What do I drive on most tours? Either a '28 or '31 Chevy. Why? Because it is more fun than jumping in a car that is more like my daily drivers. With power brakes, air conditioning, power steering, automatic they are a breeze to drive and will go nearly anywhere. I drove one to the 25th Anniversary meet in Santa Rosa, CA and we drove two to the 30th Anniversary meet at Nashville, TN. One was so the guys from Australia would have an old Chevy to drive at the meet. I just handed over the keys and picked up them after the meet was over so I could drive it home.

What will I take to Grand Junction? Not sure but you can bet one will be a four cylinder with ~600 original miles. Why so people can at least see such an unusually low mileage car. Not too many members have ever seen a FB touring car or a 1918 V-8 or a 490 Roadster. How many do you think have seen a '68 Camaro? Or a '76 Caprice? Or a '57 BA hardtop?

Quite true Chipper, (What does an unmodified, stock 57 Belair look like), did it come out with a 350/350 and disc brakes, and Antique Vintage Air????? is it simular to a 53 Belair?..... but the pendulem is swinging back the other way in touring, or is it just my imagination? Four cylinder tour here, very early six cylinder tour there, four and early six tours here and there...and they all are sold OUT!

MM, if we ever get to the same show you can see my unmodified, stock '57 BA.

I have tried very hard to make my '57 as it was built in '57...and I sure hope the judges do look at the tags and codes and check to see if the car is modified or not.

If the VCCA doesn't check the tags/codes it will encourage people to put duels and 4bbl, etc. on cars that shouldn't have them.

It has the correct paint (color and type) and it has the original motor. Do the same rules apply to my '57 as they do to my '32...could I have put any '57 color on my car and any year 283ci in her?

Since the VCCA disavows the cowl tag information it is my understanding that you can put any 1957 color on your car and it would still be correct, even though your car is not painted the original color as indicated on the cowl tag. And, if your car originally had a 283 cu. in. engine, any year 283 cu. in. engine is allowed with no points deducted.

:p

if vcca disavows the cowl/trim tag data in terms of exterior color/interior layout and hence judging of same, then why not take a chisel to the cowl/trim tag? Seems rather foolish to disregard the info on the tags when judging the car. on the other hand, the corvette community has been dealing with counterfit midyear vette trim tags for better than 20 years. seems a red 67 435 roadster that started out life as a green 300 hp roadster will bring more frogskins at Barett/Jackson than it would in its original birthday suit. ncrs just published a 120 page(8 1/2 x 11") manual titled the authentication library which deals with the 63 to 67 corvette trim tags , specifically illustrating via magnified photos, the diffenences between real and counterfeit trim tags.Hopefully the authentication library, in the hands of the ncrs judges, will sort out the real vs non-real trim tags.i must admit the JYD's disclosure that vcca ignores cowl tag data is news to me, but then again, i've only had a couple cars to vcca events for judging.i'm afraid i'd have a sour taste for vcca if i showed up at a vcca judged event with my restored 39 woodie, alongside another 39 woodie painted anything other than woodash brown metallic, and both 39's scored the same for paint(all 39 chevy woodies were woodash brown metallic when they left their respective secondary wood body suppliers). Seems to me the club needs to start paying attention to the data on engine pads and cowl/trim plates. what have we got to loose in terms of originality?my 2 cents. regards all, mike

Mike: My thoughts exactly. The cowl tag information is there for a reason and to ignore such valuable information during the judging process is hard to comprehend. No guesswork when you check the paint, upholstery and accessories against the cowl tag. Seems like it would save a lot of time per car on the part of the judges knowing up front what that particular car came with from the factory.

It's no wonder so few cars are judged at meets these days.

That is IF any of this krapola I'm reading is true.

Why bother.

Sounds to me like anything goes.

You could have a nice "correct" car knit-picked to death and then have another car with wrong engine, wrong color and wrong interior score big time because it was detailed to the "nine's."

How's that for disregarding the 'spirit' of the law????

CRAZY!!!

Bill.

Before people criticize the VCCA judging process, go to a couple of meets and volunteer to judge. Go to a judging school and attend the judges seminar and/or pre-judging meeting. Once you have seen the system from the prospective of a judge then you will know what actually happens,the difficulty in getting a vehicle judged in 10-15 minutes and the results. Do the best vehicles get the top awards? With extremely rare exceptions YES!

It is not perfect but much better than many think. Yes, there still are improvements that are needed and many more people that can help. The Judging Committee, headed by Steve Scott, has made a lot of progress and improved the consistancy.

I would like to see a special judging for the top notch restorations. Much like the NCRS, by the numbers judging for Top Flight, etc. awards. It takes a team of experts hours to get one vehicle judged and is as picky as picky can get. It results in vehicles that are as close as possible to the way they were manufactured. And amaizingly there are lots of people willing to spend the BIG BUCKS to get their cars "certified".

might not be a bad idea for vcca to send Steve Scott and other well qualified VCCA judges to a NCRS regional judging event to see how complex judging can be.agree that it would be impossible to judge as many cars as VCCA typically does per judged day and yet judge with the scrutiny of a NCRS event. there has to be a happy medium wherein Cowl/trim tags and engine case pads are examined on the VCCA judging fields. if Steve and others are interested, i can probably arrange it with NCRS. mike

Hi guys,

Wow, this is a whole lotta issues. Actually, this is a judging thread and not really a 5,6,7 one.

I would like to respond to most of the items here the best I can.

First of all the question about the 283 2bbl vs. 4bbl. If the judging team is using their knowledge and experience they will know that the powerpak has dual exhaust and the 2bbl has single exhaust on the left side. They will look for muffler hangers on both sides with fuel and brake lines either on the outside or inside of the frame rail.
However the VIN # of these vehicle only tells you if it was a V8 or not. The VINs did not have the date codes in them and the engine codes until 1959, I believe. I might be wrong on that.

Skipper, you are right about the engine data and the paint data. Ideally we should have deductions if the engine is not the original one placed in that vehicle at the factory. What about the guy who buys an old rod with a 327 and the 265 is long gone? Do we want to tell that person that they are not welcome in the club eventhough they found a 265 at a swap meet and returned the car to original? Do we deduct when the engine stamp has been milled off the pad, even though the engine is a 265 and is restored to original condition from carb to oil pan? I have a problem with that. We are not the NCRS. I respect their attention to detail and upholding the integrity of the Corvette. But we have all Chevys from 1912 to 1982. That has such a wide range of knowledge and conditions that I think we need to have some acceptance of some lee way. We are not saying to put a 350 in a 327 car. We are saying if you have a 327 and it visably appears to be factory correct, then we should allow that engine to be accepted.

We don't have the ability to judge vehicles at concours level at this time and I am not sure if we ever will. What is the "Spirit" of this club? Do we want to go to tech checks at meets? Aren't we strapped enough as it is now?

Now for the Cowl Tags. I am totally against the idea of chiselling cowl tags and selling them to owners who want to change the car. You are changing the birth certificate here not just the engine. You are talking about the whole car. Where it was built, when it was built, how many were built, etc. I know the engine is just about as important but what happens if your car is the one that the dealer had to replace in '57, under warrantee, with a cracked block? Let's be sensible.

Actually, I would like to see members paint their cars with the original color that is on the cowl tag. To be honest, we inherited that philosophy that I have been told goes way back to the early days. Do we want to change that rule now? How many members would have to strip it down to bare metal and reshoot? I have just painted my '56 Bel Air and I don't want to have to pay that bill again for a long time. That has been the consensus of our committee. We have discussed this long and hard and we don't all agree all of the time but in the end we have all accepted to be on the same page. Thanks for listening. What you all have to say is valid and respected.

Hi Scott!

You do have some valid points concerning the engine and paint issues. However, let's consider the dude that does his restoration correctly and down to the last detail. His engine is correct, not only for the cubic inches but for the year as well. His paint and trim matches what is on the cowl tag. Another dude with the same model and year of car also has his car judged. His engine has the correct cubic inches but it is the wrong year. His cowl tag dictates that the car should be painted black, however, he has the car painted a different color but it is a color that was used in that particular year. So, then, are both of these cars equal? Absolutely not. But under the present judging standards they are, and unfortunately, the dude that has his car all correct gets a slap in the face because he did his homework. I think that you will agree that this is unfair. If it is okay to have the wrong paint and the wrong year engine, then the fellow that has the correct year engine and the correct paint should get bonus points for doing the job correctly.

"What about the guy who buys an old rod with a 327 and the 265 is long gone? Do we want to tell that person that they are not welcome in the club even though they found a 265 at a swap meet and returned the car to original?"

Of course not. We can't tell this person that he can't belong to the club because he replaced his engine. You don't even have to own a car to belong to the VCCA! And, if his car had a 327 and he replaced the engine with a 265, and if he is going to have the car judged then it should be the correct year engine as well or points should be deducted regardless.

"Do we deduct when the engine stamp has been milled off the pad, even though the engine is a 265 and is restored to original condition from carb to oil pan?"

Absolutely! If the engine does not have the correct numbers, or the numbers have been ground off, then points should be deducted.

"We are saying if you have a 327 and it visibly appears to be factory correct, then we should allow that engine to be accepted."

Only if the car is not going to be judged. If it is going to be judged, then the vehicle should have the correct year engine. Again, how about the dude that does have the correct year engine in his car? Doesn't he get any credit for having the correct engine? No. Not under our present system. If no points are deducted for the wrong year engine then we are saying that it is okay to install the wrong year engine for judging purposes. The engine is the heart of the car, so if we allow wrong year engines in cars that are judged then we, as a club, are promoting that issue. Therefore, smaller issues like tire valve stems, batteries, tires and etc. seem inconsequential as compared to having the wrong year engine, which presently is okay.

Bottom line, if a dude is going to restore his car and then have it judged, he should do it the correct way or have points deducted accordingly. That is what judging is all about. Why should a guy be given the advantage by the judges of having the wrong year engine in his car with no points deducted over other guys that have the right year engine in their cars?

Like you, I am totally against chiseling or changing cowl tags....but if the VCCA is not going to recognize the cowl tags then what's the point of having the cowl tags in the first place if we are not concerned about the valuable information contained thereon that can be used in the judging process? :eek:

I would like to think that a person with the wrong year engine in his car or paint would expect to lose some points when the car is judged.

If we (VCCA) choose to overlook these items it devalues the whole judging process.

I can hear the following conversation between a VCCA member and some other club member:

"Yes sir, this car of mine got 1000 points in the National VCCA show last year; however it has the wrong engine and the wrong paint".

I don't think people would not mind "losing" points for these item if they knew everyone else with this 'problem' would also lose points.

I assume the car owners know if they have the wrong engine or if the paint color doesn't match the code....if you ask on the entry form the year of engine and the paint code it would not slow anything down...of course the VCCA would trust the members but verify (random).

If I want a car to show and it was: "What about the guy who buys an old rod with a 327 and the 265 is long gone? Then I buy a 265 with the correct build date or I EXPECT to lose points.

If I am building a show car I would not buy a "milled off" block or if I did then I would expect to lose points.

Bottom line is the VCCA judges should not be in the business of accepting non-original as original.

Isn't there an issue here besides fooling the judges into missing a default?
Should not the Car owners in a VCCA show for points be ethical enough to declare any deficiencies he knows exist at the time of judging on his car?
Is VCCA not composed of enough honest members to insist on being honest and truthful and ethical, and having a death penalty of 200 or more points deduction or disqualification and loss of Show judge classification for anyone, judge or owner, that gets caught or allows an owner to be dishonest??

I edited in this last paragraph after Gator's post.

A car with everything with the right numbers trim and paint according to the cowl tag should score more points than the other with the right cubic inch engine and the paint that was not the same as the cowl tag should. PERIOD!!!
Also a car should not be disqualified from being judged if it is a Chevrolet. and if it is at least 25 years old even a 54 with a 350/350 or a 292 and a 5 speed, if it makes it past the safety test and is driven into its place on the judging field it should be judged and so what if it only scores 25 out of 1000, it gets judged!!!PERIOD!!!