VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1933-1936 Oil Change

Hi All,
I am new to the community. My father pass away last year and before he died he gave me his 1935 Chevy Standard. It had been restored but I do not know the previous owners information to ask him any question.

I want to change the oil but I not sure if the type of oil used was detergent or non-detergent. It is my understanding that if non-detergent oil was used there should be a lot of sludge??? My 35 does not have an oil filter and I would like to use a detergent oil but I know you can't mix the types. Is there a way to flush the engine or change over with out a total tear down??? I am guessing that once I pull off the oil pan I see what type was used. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Steve :parking:

If you want peace of mind remove the oil pan and check for sludge. you can also check for sludge buildup by removing the valve cover. If you think that is too mechanical for you to do you could buy the gaskets and have your favorite garage handle the job. Any reasonable mechanic will be able to do it. If they say they cannot don't trust your modern car to that shop! Use 10-30 modern oil.

Thank you for the response. I total rebuilt my 65 mustang so not to afraid to get in there. The engine for my 65 was a inline 6 200 but I had a machine shop rebuild that part. The 1935 unlike my 65 mustang does not have a lot of standard information out there. If there is sludge how best to remove it???

Also is there a way to flush the engine without messing it up to change over to modern oil?

or do you have to tear it all down to do that.

It run pretty good now and always cranks up but I notice the oil was really low so I wanted to add some...thats what started the whole thing as I discovered about non-detergent oil

Steve

There is no reason that you could not mix non-detergent and detergent oil....say like 50/50.
The best solution would be to remove the oil pan and clean it and the pick-up screen. The easy step would be to remove the valve cover first and judge from what you see.
Do not use any flush liquid like kereosene as it could dislodge chunks of sludge. Detergent oil will not remove sluge but hold new sludge in suspension so it can be drained out.
Detergent oils have been around for more than 65 years so chances are it has been used in your engine. BUT even dertergent oil can allow sludge to form under the right conditions.

Like others have said, I would remove the valve cover, engine side cover and oil pan then clean everything out.

Normal modern motor oil has a lower Zinc and Phosphorus content and is made specifically for modern engine designs. I use racing oil in my antique cars that do not have catalytic converters due to the higher ZDDP content. I am not recommending a specific racing oil here even thought this his what I use in my 1933 Chevrolet and 1962 Triumph TR4. If you look at the PI Sheet found on the following website you will notice the Zinc and Phosphorus is approximately 30% higher than standard modern motor oil products.

http://www.valvoline.com/our-products/motor-oil/racing-synthetic-motor-oil

When the auto manufactures figured out the ZDDP was killing catalytic converters they went to oil with a lower levels and redesigned engines to run on reduced ZDDP.

There have been numerous discussions on this topic on other forums and some agree and others don't, but the oil manufactures website specifically address this topic when you look at their racing oils online.

There was little or no ZINC in motor oils until the mid '50's.
There is enough ZINC in modern 10W-30 oils to protect the cam lobes on all 6 cylinder and 8 Cylinder engines with stock non-racing cams. Replacement cams that are poorly hardened shold have a higher ZIN content oil.

Yes and what was the life of an engine between rebuilds back in those days.

Any comparison of engine life for 1930s engines and more modern engines needs to factor in operating conditions, materials of construction, machining tolerances and manufacturing processes. As an example thick soft babbitt was used in the 30s because they were exposed to dust, grit and other abrasives, they needed to be adjustable under a shade tree and due to road conditions average speeds were closer to the 20-30 mph than the 55-70 mph of today.

Yes, as Chipper said, they were exposed to much more dust and dirt and the air cleaners were not very good compared to modern ones. The oil was non-detergent and very low quality compared to the oils of today, also, most didn't have oil filters. They were mostly driven at low speeds on short drives as people didn't normally travel as far as they do today. Short drives cause more wear than over the road trips, especially if the engine doesn't get completely warmed up.

Steve,

Mosty words of wisdom here so far. The racing oil will not hurt anything and it will not help you either.

My simple advice is to go to your local Wal-mart and buy any brand (the Wal-mart brand will be cheapest and will work just fine), buy a 5 quart container of it and then change the oil.

There is very little difference in the modern oils as observed in the small circle on the back of the container. Buy yourself a suitable funnel whilst you are at the store also.

As to the oil weight I would use 10w-30. The 10 causes the oil to move better when cold and the 30 causes it act as 30 weight when hot. Since your car's engine doesn't have many relative miles on it the 10w-30 should act nicely.

Don't go pulling the valve, side cover or pan. There should be no need and will only cause more seeps and leaks afterward. So merely change the oil.

Gene was right-on in his posts about this issue. I only differ with him when he advised about looking to see if there was sludge. There is no need to do that.

Don't buy any stinkin part or full synthetic oil. The engine doesn't need it, it will cost a heap more and the engine will wonder if you have lost your cotton-picking mind. Don't over-think this thing.

Charlie

Pull the plug on the oil pan and use a rag on a wire or small stick. Do not let the rag/wire/stick to go in all the way so you can pull it out. Remove and examine for sludge.

The fear is that a chunk of sludge will break off and plug one of the dippers or oil jets. That will cause the bearing to fail. I have 45,000 miles on a current rebuild, the 1936 1/2 ton truck and 37,000 miles on a current rebuild, the 1936, Standard, Town Sedan car. Both are using S.A.E. 30 non-detergent oil. During the rebuild of both there was minimal build up of sludge on the engine block, main, rods, etc. Most of the sludge was in the bottom of the pan. That is where it is engineered to collect. The truck did have a build up on the head. That caused the valve cover casket to leak. But it did not interfere with the return oil flow. These old engines are fun to work on and are truly amusing to see how engineers solved problems of the day.

The problem with non detergent oil is that it is the lowest grade you can buy with little wear additives. Maybe as good as you could get in the 1930s.

There are four additives added to oil to prevent scuffing which happens when the oil film is lost.
They are Zink, Molybdeun, phosphours and sulfur. The first three are in all modern "good" oils. The problem with Zinc is that is is a metallic substance and is susoended in oil if the form of a fine dust. It does nothing to the oil BUT if the metals are hot and the oil film is lost it welds its self to the surfaces to make a coating of temporary lubrication. This can happen most frequently between the cam shaft lobe and bottom of the lifter. This rarely happens on older engines that had low cam lobes and weaker valve springs. In my parts department days we never saw a 6 cylinder camshaft loose a lobe but did occur on 8 cylinder engines that did not have the oil changed often enough. the same engine would also be full of sludge. Mant engines of all makes had cam problems in their first V-8 engines.
In 1957 Chevrolet added this material to the oil in the new engine and the oil was not supposed to be changed for the first 1000 miles to give time to protect the tight fitting parts from scuffing. At that time they also introduced EOS (engine oil supplemnt) an oil additive to be used for breaking in new camshafts + it was a detergent for cars with sticky lifters. A common problem back then due to the low amount of detergent in the oil.
Zinc in motor reached a high point about 20 yeas ago with 1600 parts per million .Then it was reduced to 1200 PPM and then down to 800 PPM. The 800 is more than sufficent for 6 cylinder cars runing a well broken-in camshaft. Will also be OK for most standard performance V-8 engines, The exception will be engines with modern replacements cams that are not properly hardened. Too much Zinc is also bad.
Raceing oils are made for racing. They are a short term oil that has extra Zinc but missing some of the additives that everyday car engines requir. Diesel oils also MAY contain extra zinc but are designed to be used in a disel engine.
Any oil that has the top rating of SL will have a higher Zinc content and should not be used in 2000 and up engines. Generally these oil could be high Mileage or grades like #30 or 10W-40.
NOn-detergent oils MAY lack the complete additive package and not contain additives to prevent rust, oil foaming, and not have an additive to make the oil more slippery.
Prior to WWII oils had no additives and te better oils were just refined better.
It is common to find some sludge and dirt sitting at the bottom of the oil pan with any oil. This material settles out of the oil when the engine is not run for a period of time.
If the car is drive a distance to get the oil hot and not used in cold weather the detergent is ot that important if the oil is changed often enough.
In actual oil wear tests is was found that oils with a higher amount of Zinc did not protect as well as lowe zinc oils.

I have read many articles on modern oils and the above agrees with the finding that the "experts" have agreeded on..

Don't sweat the sludge issue. just get you some 10w-30 and change it.

You said that you dad restored the car. Then, it follows that he rebuilt the engine. Chances are then that he didn't put many miles on it. if you tear into the engine you will find some amount of sludge. it will be harmless. it is merely something that we clean up on rebuild.

Whatever you do do not use any type of engine flush. Or devices that will loosen up any sludge. The only thing you can do is to change the oil and run it for few miles and then drain it. That is a waste of time and money but may satisfy the itch you feel but can't scratch.

Best,
Charlie

BTW: About that last post by Gene; Surely Chi[pper was about to post the same long and excellent history and analysis of automobile engine oil. i was too but Gene beat us to it by mere seconds. Did too!

Charlie,

By the way my Dads name...and all those that posted I really appreciate the advice. I have already bought the oil pan gasket so I think i will go ahead and and pull it and clean every thing up. I an doing some engine dress up anyway. I will go with 10w-30 as that seems to make the best sense and change it a couple time over tne next few months. I reaally want to do one of the road tours so just making sure she will get down the road without breaking down. Thnak you again for all of the advice as I will need it over the next little while to get my self smart to the 30s cars.

p.s. I will try not to over think going forward

Steve

If you have a straight axle across under the oil pan,you will have to jack the car up in the air until the front wheels dangle free. This will give you the clearance needed to remove the oil pan. Be sure the car is well blocked up and rear tires are chocked. I always place large wooden blocks under the frame in addition to jack stands.

Steve,

Despite my sound advice, it seems that you're going ahead and messing with the oil pan anyway.

Be sure you read Gene's excellent advice about installing the new oil pan gaskets. That is the hard part of the operation. if you don't get it right, it will leak like a 37/38. Will too!

Best,
Charlie

If it was my car and Dad had it running...I would leave it alone!!! Just change the oil and go on!!! Don't fix that what is not broken.

Some things to consider before dropping your oil pan. You will need something to hold up the oil pan when trying to attach screws. I used a hydraulic jack as I did it by myself. An assistant would be even better because the pan is long and cumbersome. Also use a gasket sealer material like permatex on the gasket. These 80 plus year old engines are prone to leak.

I use four studs made from cut-off bolts, place one at each end and side. They will guide the pan on the way up and keep the gaskets in place.
When installing the gaskets the side gaskets MUST be stuck on the block first. Then the end corks are put in place as the ens of the corks but up against the tabs on the end of the side gaskets. Originally the end corks were pre-bent and would slip into the main bearing cap groves Today replacement end corks are often too long and not bent so taping the to a beer or soda can for a day or two will form them. Also todays gasket material is not as soft as the old cork gaskes were and retightening the pan two or there times will be necessary. I never used Permatex but rather grease to hold the gaskets in place. Then if a do-over is necessary the gaskets can be removed much eaisier.

Steve,

one can tell by Gene's description of replacing the pan gaskets is a pain.

The ends must be rolled over a 12 ounce can for a day, grease applied to the bottom of the block and guides fashioned. plus, trmembering to put the side gaskets on first.

here's what can happen;

BTW; After having dropped the pan, you will need to do the following:

a. you will have to drive down the road for quite a distance to fine a 12 ounce can. you won't find one around the house.

b. While taping the short end gaskets to the can, they will break or they will before they form the shape you need. When you untape them, they will break. This here is cheap cork stuff they use nowadays.

c. While you're attaching the side or end gaskets the one of the side ones will atart to droop. For a show of the effects of gravity, just lay back, and grab a beer, then whilst lying there, what the gaskets slowly pull loose and drop in the dirt and grime or your perfectly clean floor. like a cat the gaskets can and will turn in mid-air and hit with the greasy side down. Will too.

d. Ask the missus if there is anything she needs before you go to the parts place to get a new set of gaskets. Don't loose patience. After several tries you will bet them in place correctly.

As someone mentioned, you'll need an extra set of hands to help you. Don't ask the missus. She will think the position of lying on her back down there may excite evil thoughts in you mind. Get a jack or an ubly buddy to help you.

Good luck,
Charlie :computer

BTW: After having dropped the pan, you may loosen some harmless sludge. now you will have to take it to a engine machine shop and have it dipped to remove all the sludge from the bottom or that in the lines and troughs.

plus, you will have to get an alignment tool to check the angle of the spouts. not really necessary unless there is rassonable evidence that you may have bent one or that one may have been slightly out alignment all along.

you may also want to clean the screen. just burn it off. or replace it. your call.

As to the oil pump? Well, you can see the beat goes on and on. The things you don't do whilst under there will bug you until a rod starts knocking. Then those itchy things will leave your mind. Wonder why/

Ask anyone if what i say has merit/

Ok..I relent I will hold onto the gaskets and not pull anything. I am going to the parts store this weekend and just change the oil out. I know there are some small leaks but just getting under there and cleaning it up I believe will help. I am not sure if the engine got rebuilt but I do know the past owner had the valve cover, side panels and oil pan painted. The problem is that he had them painted a light green color. not sure what to do about that. It looks ok but I believe the original color was gray.

Steve

The original was the gray but your green will look nice for the Spring season.
It is not unusual to see some oil seepage around the various gaskets. Also when a car is not driven to any extent you wil find oil drops clinging to varoius places. What counts is when you take a 50 mile trip and what his the pavement when you stop for a few minutes.

The original engine color was dark blue-gray....not just gray.

yea I heard the filling station has what they say is as close to original as you can get. I will leave the light green for now as it is in good shape