That has been done, redone and done again after several people said the noise was"above" and not "below". We also tried to isolate it by disconnecting each plug in turn, no change. I had a chat with the guy who did the short block and he said camshaft end play can make some strange noises. He also said the "tick" sound may be the fuel pump. Unless I get better results with settings other than .006 and .013 .
PAT I WOULD REMOVE THE VALVE COVER AND HAND CHECK THE ROCKER ARMS FOR PLAY.
I WOULD THEN GET MY FINGERS AROUND A VALVE PUSHROD TO SEE IF THERE IS UP AND DOWN PLAY THERE, OR POSSIBLE ONE IS BENT..
TO ISOLATE THE SOUND , I WOULD GET A PIECE OF RUBBBER HOSE 3/8" OPEN INSIDE WITH SMALL FUNNEL AND WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING PLACE FUNNEL END TO MY EAR , ONE AT A TIME ON EACH ROCKER ARM, TO LISTEN FOR THE NOISE.
SURE SOUNDS LIKE VALVE TRAIN NOISE. I WOULD ALSO REMOVE SIDE COVER AND WATCH THE VALVE PUSHROD ACTION IN THAT AREA.
FAILING TO DETERMINE THE EXACT CAUSE , YOU MAY HAVE TO ASSUME A WRIST PIN PROBLEM. ITS A PRETTY LOW MILEAGE MOTOR THAT WAS REBUILT BY YOU AND ITS NOT SOMETHING THAT SHOULD HAPPEN , BUT IT MIGHT HAVE ?????
Thanks Mike. I have drained the engine and will do the "rod check" to make sure that isn't the problem. I had the side cover off in the spring to reseal it. I played with the pushrods while it was off and didn't see anything untoward. That doesn't mean there isn't.
The last thing making that noise is the rods. I would suspect the valve trsin, sticking valves or push rod hitting the side cover. The first thning I would do if it were mine is pour sme MMO or ATF through the carb. throat with the engine running. Also could be in the helper springs and or retainers that are on top of the lifters.I would remove the side cover first and dig from there. If it was the fuel pump you could feel it when touching the pump. You could also run the engine with the side cover removed and observe.
I had a similiar "upper end " noise that turned out to be a push rod hitting the side cover as it rotated.
The push rod cup was not centered in the stem of the push rod and as it rotated it would bump up against a "wrinkle" that had formed when the factory stamped the side cover.
With the engine idling, I used a long screw driver placed against the side cover and placed my ear against the handle. Once found, I removed the valve cover first to see if there was an obvious bend. That was when I discovered the taping sound was in unison with the rotation of the push rod as the engine was idling. I removed the side cover and found a shiny spot on a "wrinkle" next to the spark plug pocket. ( All of this happened after replacing the gasket on the side cover. ) I also noticed that I could "shift" the side cover from front to rear because of the free play between the size of the screws and the hole diameter in the side cover. After making my clearance adjustment that I describe below, I made sure to hold the side cover toward the front of the engine as I tightened it in place.....noise gone.
I placed a large drift punch along the wrinkle and using it as a dolly, I hammered along the length of the drift punch to try and create a long depression so the push rod would clear.
I did roll the push rod on a piece of glass to be sure it was straight. I also noticed that all of the push rods had varying degrees of rotational off set so you may have more than one rubbing.
Dave old cars are meant to be driven !! VCCA # 047832
I would advise against setting the valve clearance any tighter than the specs you have! At that setting, the valve train should be quiet! If you decrease the clearance the only thing you will accomplish is burning the valves prematurely!
OK. It looks like there is nothing hitting the side cover. there are no marks anywhere, not even near the spark plug bosses where it is closest. And Gene figures it isn't a rod sound. So that leaves piston pins or the piston themselves. I guess i'll try the plug shorting bit again to see if I hear a difference. There is more than valvetrain noise there.
Here are a couple more recordings. The first is cold with the choke on. the other is with the choke off, so a bit slower. Maybe I should take one with the engine thoroughlly warmed up as well.
Could a dipper hitting a trough make the deeper sound?
I can't tell what deeper noise is coming from the lower end, but if you are chasing the loud valve ticking?...
can I make a suggestion?... it sounds like one valve is really ticking more. If I was doing this, I would use a .004 feeler gage slipped into each intake at an idle. Then use a .008 on the exhausts while at idle. (by slipping in, I mean you are taking up some slack for a moment, not readjusting the screw) It is merely a noise elimination test.
I had to do this on a 50s 235 six that had worn rocker shafts and rockers. That test quieted the worst ones that I was hearing, so at least I knew what was wrong, and stopped any guesswork of looking at other random areas.
Just because the valves are set to specs, does not eliminate the same noise if there is abnormal valvetrain wear. On that 235, I ended up using tighter specs on the few that were real noisy. That worked fine until the owner waited till winter to have an engine shop rebuild it, and use NOS rockers/shafts.
I can't tell what deeper noise is coming from the lower end, but if you are chasing the loud valve ticking?...
can I make a suggestion?... it sounds like one valve is really ticking more. If I was doing this, I would use a .004 feeler gage slipped into each intake at an idle. Then use a .008 on the exhausts while at idle. (by slipping in, I mean you are taking up some slack for a moment, not readjusting the screw) It is merely a noise elimination test.
I had to do this on a 50s 235 six that had worn rocker shafts and rockers. That test quieted the worst ones that I was hearing, so at least I knew what was wrong, and stopped any guesswork of looking at other random areas.
Just because the valves are set to specs, does not eliminate the same noise if there is abnormal valvetrain wear. On that 235, I ended up using tighter specs on the few that were real noisy. That worked fine until the owner waited till winter to have an engine shop rebuild it, and use NOS rockers/shafts.
You could try it without the lifter springs.....ubt if they are permentaly removed you have to install stronger valve springs. With the engine running at idle speed you should be able to "feel" the noise by touching the various parts. If it would be a piston you could used a broom stick or long screw driver, holding it against the top of the cylinder barrel on the left side of the block.
You could try it without the lifter springs.....ubt if they are permentaly removed you have to install stronger valve springs. With the engine running at idle speed you should be able to "feel" the noise by touching the various parts.
I imagine that would require removing the head correct? And are the stronger valve springs available with FS or one of them?
[/color] If it would be a piston you could used a broom stick or long screw driver, holding it against the top of the cylinder barrel on the left side of the block.
[color:#3366FF]Would a stethoscope work there? I have one of those. It is what we all used to try and locate the source of the racket.
This might be a dumb question but is it possible to remove the lifter springs and change the valve springs without removing the head? And are the stronger valve springs readily available?
Yes, but you will need a valve spring compressor. The springs you will need are for 1938-1953 216 engine. I eleminates the lifter spings in my '34 40 years ago. It saves a lot of work when removing the head. Chevrolet finally removed them in 1938.
While I have not listened to the video another possible that I have been caught with is the fuel pump arm being worn at the pivot or a very stiff diaphram and therefore not staying in contact with the camshaft. It is only a wild guess but is at valve speed. Tony
I know such ticking noise from a worn solid lifter (to much radial clearance). It drove me crazy till I found out. Couldn´t imagine that a lifter with to much radial play cause ticking noise till then.
Some rebuilders leave the springs and retainers off of the lifters in the engines. A lot of lifter noise happens without these parts. They say they are not needed as the valve springs hold the lifters in place. But during the movement when the valve is shut the clearance gap of .013 on exhaust and .006 on inlet valves causes the lifter to chatter. Thus a noisy engine.
Some rebuilders leave the springs and retainers off of the lifters in the engines. A lot of lifter noise happens without these parts. They say they are not needed as the valve springs hold the lifters in place. But during the movement when the valve is shut the clearance gap of .013 on exhaust and .006 on inlet valves causes the lifter to chatter. Thus a noisy engine.
Mine are there. Gene suggested that if one is to remove them, he should use stiffer valve springs. Probably for the reasons you're stating.
Stronger valve springs will not change the setting of a "Gap" between the rocker arm and the top of the valve. The valve is all the way closed against the valve seat. The spring can not lift any further due to the keeper holding it. The "Gap" and looseness is there. The Rocker has no pressure on it at that point. The push rod is loose and the lifters are free to travel some of the gap of .013 or .006. They come off of the camshaft. So there is Rocker Arm, Push Rod, and Lifter noise. It sounds like a sewing machine in place of that quite Chevy engine.
If stronger valve springs are not used the valves will float and not seal properly and the exhaust will burn. If you review the valve spring tension on the extra spring engine it is considerly less tha say a 1938 engine that no longer used the lifter springs Chevrolet said the lifter sping exerted 41 pounds of pressre that the conventional sprigs that engine used lacked. The idea of the lifter springs was to keep constant pressure on all valve train parts for less noise. that just didn't work as planed.
As a retired professional mechanic with about 60 years experience, it definitely sounds to me like valve train related! I agree with everything Gene Schneider says, and I would like to add to it. With the engine running, you can carefully put a finger on a rocker arm and You will feel a difference if one is loose or worn; the action should be smooth through the entire valve cycle. You can also feel the push rods. If there is a malfunction you should feel a sharp tap, almost like hitting with a hammer. As for a sticky valve, Genes' suggestion about MMO through the carburetor is always a good idea! The other thing I have done is to put some MMO in an oil can and lube the valve stems while the engine is running! just squirt a little between the spring coils! Good luck! I would like to know the results flip
I am aware of the valve train noise. But nobody seems to hear the toca-toctoca-toc which goes up and down with the engine speed. Have you listened to the second recording in the first post, the one where I drive around the block? Try and ignore the gear grinding and pay attention to the last part when I come back into the driveway.It is more audible at that point but I can hear it all the time when I drive and it gets worse at highway speeds. THAT is what worries me.
As far as MMMO goes, I don't believe it is available here in Canada. So I will do the ATF bit to ensure we aren't looking at a sticky valve. I have started looking for the 1938 or later valve springs and some new lifters if I can find them. Pushrods Too to be sure.
But they'd have to be removed and measured wouldn't they? Another thing I must check is the ball studs. I remember changing some because some of the threads had broken. Anyway all this is my fault or at least my compulsion to recycle and reuse. I was hopefully rebuilding this for the following generations. I should have gone all new throughout. What is it the Kanter logo says? Do it right and do it once.
If the push rods are not bent (can be straightened) or the top cup the ball fits into not broken out they are OK. If the adjusting screw ball is round it is OK. Check for a broken valve spring, thats about alll that will break.
Jah! Wer alles hat de swei fennich gesproken! Hapf sei und goodes seit mit dich. Alles die oldest mechanic menschens sprockgefiel macken. Aba alles seint voll. Good luck with your project.
The last thing making that noise is the rods. I would suspect the valve trsin, sticking valves or push rod hitting the side cover. The first thning I would do if it were mine is pour sme MMO or ATF through the carb. throat with the engine running. Also could be in the helper springs and or retainers that are on top of the lifters.I would remove the side cover first and dig from there. If it was the fuel pump you could feel it when touching the pump. You could also run the engine with the side cover removed and observe.
If nothing shows up the next thing is a piston.
Don,t fool with the rods.
Just to be sure I removed the oil pan and tried to move the rod ends with my hands, no hammer. Two or three move imperceptibly with hand pressure. The only give away is oil welling up on the side. #5 moves enough that I can hear a "tick" . I think that is my knock that no one seems to hear.I think I should remove 1 shim. What is the torque value when putting the cap back on?
On a 1934 engine the rods are adjusted by removing a .001" shim until the rod can not be moved fore and aft by hand but can be moved by tappping lightly with an 8 Oz. hammer. This is when the engine is set up before running. After several hundred miles you WILL be able to move the back and forth by hand.
seeing your engine is fairly fresh I would consider it normal that some will move and some not. You can inspect them all for melted babbitt by removing the caps. Depending on what thickness shims the rebuilder used (Chevrolet has .001" and .002 have to be a good .010" or more clearence or more (like a burnt out rod) to make that amount of noise.
The engine has 1200 miles, almost all of it running around town with the occasional trip down the highway.So I'll check that numnber 5 first. It is noticeably looser than the others.
No.5 had two .002 shims on one side and a Stack on the other side. I ended up with three .002s on each side at which point it didn't move by hand any more but did with the hammer. So I left it like that and buttoned her up. Went for a ride . The knock seems to be gone but the clatter remains of course.
Only one part left. This shoulder bolt fell out of the side pan. It looks like something that should go on the distributor. I looked from above, and from below but can't figure where it goes. I'll have to dig out the parts book.
I'd like to thank everyone for their concerns and advice. I will purchase some pushrods, ball studs, some tappets and 216 valve springs. Everything else was new at the time of the rebuild.
Meanwhile I'll wear earplugs instead of my hearing aids when I drive it and we should be ok for the rest of the summer. Come fall, I'll tear into it again.
The shoulder bolt goes through the distributor manual advance arm into the engine block. The distributor and manual advance arm pivot on the shoulder bolt when the spark knob is pulled out.
Correct. In 1929-32 the shoulder screw was used in conjunction with the spark control knob and cable and it was called a "manual advance arm tension screw". However, in 1933 and 1934, since the distributor had an automatic advance, the shoulder screw was then called a "hold down screw". Each screw also had a different part number as well.
From what I can hear and my hearing is not what it use to be...sounds like the fuel pump arm is slapping on the cam. That is what I hear on your video. Also, you are shifting to fast. You must be fully stopped to go into first. Then push in clutch and shift to neutral...let out clutch...then push in and shift to second. Then push in and go to neutral....let out clutch...then push in and shift to third. Movement is like driving on a quite Sunday morning ... slow... working the clutch fast just will not get it in without scratching gears. Good luck with your noise problem.
The 1934 Master has a syncromesh transmission So you can shift without double clutching. A Chevrolet feature starting in 1932 (except 1933-1936 Standard)
About the fuel pump, any suggestions as tro a cure? Bend the arm? As far as shifting too fast, you are right, I was to busy concentating on my granddaughter and the recording and was't paying attention. I'm usuallu better than that.
Hearing your engine....your engine does not sound to bad. It sounds like mine. I have both '36 car and truck. These Babbitt rod engines are more noisy than modern ones by a lot. I do not hear any "knocking or thumping" sounds. Sounds like tapping/clicking are not so important. I do not hear those in access either. I do hear normal clicking sounds. I will tell you that hearing over the net is not like actually standing there. If it was my car I would run it as is. That is what I think.
Hearing your engine....your engine does not sound to bad. It sounds like mine. I have both '36 car and truck. These Babbitt rod engines are more noisy than modern ones by a lot. I do not hear any "knocking or thumping" sounds. Sounds like tapping/clicking are not so important. I do not hear those in access either. I do hear normal clicking sounds. I will tell you that hearing over the net is not like actually standing there. If it was my car I would run it as is. That is what I think.
I certainly hope you are right. I may be fussy having been spoiled by silent engines before. I think it takes away from the overall enjoyment of the car. It is just that I know that "better" is possible.
Yes, there are quite engines but they may have brass in place of lead. Brass valve guides, brass on the connecting rod and connecting rod bearing cap. They can be made to "be quite". Then the question becomes is it original or sort of?
The only brass busings used were the ones pressed into the piston for the wrist pin and pressed into the rocker arms on pre 1941 engines. The valve guides were steel and rod and main bearing babbitt, a lead mixtrure.
I remember a dead quiet 48 sedan and a 31. I remember a 48 GMC truck that sounded like mine does now. This big girl is likely the cause of my yearning for quietness. If it hadn't had a fan, you would never have known it was running.
My 41 Olds 6 fuel pump tick is the only noise i hear on idle. Got 2000 miles on engine after rebuild. Hope it stays this quiet. There was another tinkling noise on idle and i found the fan pulley cracked where it bolts to the water pump.
Fuel pump "click" my be due to the springs in the fuel pump being "weak". The weak springs do not have enough pressure to keep the fuel pump rocker arm in contact with the cam shaft eccentric.
The other thing could be a worn rocker arm pin in the "link, rocker arm" (arm that rides on the camshaft). Also, looking at the link, rocker arm (in fuel pump) at the diaphragm push rod where it hooks onto the push rod for an egg shape.
All of this is oiled by splashing of oil in the oil pan area as well as oil on the camshaft slinging. Removing the fuel pump to see if the opening through into the block is not plugged up with sludge. That the fuel pump is receiving splashing oil.
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and pay attention to the last part when I come back into the driveway.It is more audible at that point but I can hear it all the time when I drive and it gets worse at highway speeds. THAT is what worries me. 
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