VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1929-1932 Reproduction Heads for 194 Engine - Group Purchase

I would as well....

Mac

Jmmm,

Working on this now and will get back to everyone once I get a better sense of pricing. For now, I am using a bulk purchase of 50 replica heads as the number to price.

If there is ANY way to have this work for 1933 Master Id be in as well.

Jeff

I have been on the phone speaking with some of the guys that build reproduction heads for model Ts. These guys have invested long ago in having a pattern maker build a permanent pattern that can be used over and over.

This is a very expensive process but I understand that a lower cost way of making a pattern is with a 3-D printer. I am doing research on this now and will have more to report back on soon.

The 29 I am restoring is leaking water into the cylinders so badly that it does not run. I assumed blown head gasket, now I am wondering if the head is cracked. I am going to send the engine out for rebuilding. If the head is cracked, what are the options?

Your options for a cracked head are have it repaired or find another. Fixing the head you already have is likely your best option.

What are the options? Repair or replace.

It all depends upon how badly the cylinder head is cracked and where the cracks are located. If your cylinder head is cracked in the valve seats..no problem because the valve seats can be replaced. If you have minor cracks then the cylinder head can be repaired.

If the cylinder head is cracked beyond repair then it would have to be replaced. Since the cylinder heads of that vintage are prone to cracking, you may not find a cylinder head that is crack free. The key then is to find a cylinder head that can be repaired even though it is cracked. That is what I did on my 1930 Chevy Sport Coupe. I went through five cylinder heads.....all cracked, but I used the one with the least amount of damage and had it repaired. It worked out fine.

You are absolutely correct. Eventually and that time is rapidly approaching replacement heads are going to be needed to put more old Chevys on the road or keep some that are now being driven but get a concussion.

All,

I remain hopeful that the timing may be right in terms of the development of technologies to start the process of getting some reproduction heads.

One core issue is to find a way to get the pattern made using a 3D printing technology. There are folks printing sand molds with the 3D printing technology but these molds are expensive to print and have a one-time use.

If we can get some patterns printed of the scarce heads then we can house them someplace (hoping the Filling Station) and get production runs from the same pattern every time inventory drops.

I'll have some info soon.

Gealdo

Steve from TFS here. The real question in my mind is what are people willing to pay for a new cylinder head? It is not going to be economically feasible to produce 50 cylinder heads at one time. If you (just guessing here) put a cost of around $1,000 each, that comes to $50K. Being realistic, a figure of 10-20 is more likely what will be sold in the first year, less in the second year. That figure will be mostly dependent on the retail price. Realistically, what price can they sell for without being "too expensive" for the average hobbyist? There has to be a profit involved or it won't make sense to do the project. It's time to let your voice be heard if you really want these made.

If a new reproduction wold cost $1000 I would bet it would be half the cost of a head for your modern car.

I think around $1000 would be reasonable for a good, new head......I have looked for one without cracks for over 7 years. I paid 200 bucks for one with 6 cracks the valve stem areas...had it fixed for another 300....

Mac

At $ 1000 only those desperate for a head to complete their restoration or engine rebuild will purchase one. It will cost another several hundred $$$ to get it ready to install. At $ 500 or so several more will purchase a head to have it on hand in the case theirs gets damaged.

Another way to look at the potential price to volume sales is the cost to repair cracked heads. If it only costs $ 300 to $ 500 to repair most heads then the cost of a new one will be limited to that range or a little more.

The final issue I see is a guarantee that the new heads will prove to be defect free. How long to you test to be sure that will be the case? Where to you reinforce the original head design? Failure of the heads can be a financial disaster.

I agree Chipper....

Each day I learn something new about pattern making and metal casting. Lots of good reading online if you search for "3D Printing Foundry Patterns" Aerospace and other industries have moved exclusively to 3D printing of patterns. I spoke with one big shop that has closed down its pattern shop and only uses 3D printed patterns for all of its customers in aerospace and defense.

Today it became clear that the pattern can be printed in plastic using a 3D printer. The head will have to be 3D scanned and reverse engineered first. In the not too distant past, plastic patterns would only last for a few molds but that has changed with the introduction of many new thermal plastics into the 3D printing area.

I will be getting a rough order of magnitude pricing on the cost to reverse engineer and build the pattern making process with a 3D printer. As part of this process we will need to discuss in great detail where the weaknesses are in this block. The pattern maker can thicken the material and or ad features (shapes) that add strength. Also the alloy selected for casting will make a big difference as well.

After that I will speak with a few foundries to get some estimated pricing and then of course we will need to find a competent machine shop to do the finish work.

The output of this effort will be a nice pattern and a set of 3D blueprint files that can be used later to have more heads made.

All,

I would like to start collecting photographs of heads that have come off of the magneflux machine with the cracks highlighted.

I will contact J&M Machine in Massachusetts but do other people have contacts for machines shops they have used to rebuild the 194? I would like to gather photos and start writing a draft specification on correcting the weaknesses with the 194 head.

I spoke with John from J&M and he said the cracks common to the 194 head can be seen even with NOS heads so there clearly was a manufacturing defect despite the rough abuse (over heating) some of our club drivers may subject there cars to.

Thanks for your work on this project. I think a completed head ready to bolt on with all new components for $1000 would be an acceptable target cost. If the raw casting is $1000 that would be less desirable. Just a thought- can you take a cracked head casting and reheat to high temperature to re-fuse the metal cracks?

That sounds like a good idea and I believe that is similar to
a process some repair shops use along with welding. Seeing that the metal they are working with however is nearly 100 years old and not nearly as good as todays the chances of a long lasting product is slim at best. Just my opinion but I think if a new part (perhaps improved) can be made at an acceptable price it would be a much better solution.

Any one thinking that a company that is willing to pay for the patterns and at least eight coreboxes required to produce the raw casting then pay for a fairly labour intensive casting and then pay for the labour intensive machining required and then sell it for app. $1000 is in for a rude shock. Check out the cost of a Cragar OHV conversion for a Model A Ford to get a more realistic idea.

i am sure the original castings were sand variety. and would probably bet they were wood cores. Many of our OLDer casting and cores are of the wood type, since that was the most practical method of the time. Precision machining of metal was not readily available or cost effective.

In doing all this, the most tedious portion would be the scanning and then validating. figuring they would have to scan a MACHINED finished part, then add on stock for machining. and if we are trying to get a 3 for one, may need to scan all three and then overlay them to get the best design.

Figuring out cost and process to cast would come down to quantity. if you are doing small numbers say under 100 it is going to be expensive to make true tooling/ patterns. and you will never get that money back out of it. we are probably talking $5k+ easy to make a good pattern. the best quality castings are coming out of Lost Foam Process, but that requires an expensive tool/ pattern. they cut and make a tool out of aluminum with steam ports, then they inject a foam, similar to coffee cup foam, but a little firmer. they then make foam patterns, as many as required or desired. then they can store those on the shelf till pouring. they use the foams usually with green sand mixture, and then when the pour the molten metal in the mold the foam instantly melts and vents out. you get a superior finish, requires less material sizing (for cast vs sand) tighter tolerances, only concern with this is the carbon may not all escape and may have high carbon areas if not vented properly. this is a great process for making thousands of one thing, plus great when you make patterns at more than one shop, you can ship the foams around and use them with only one tool. also with the foam you can make variations as you can glue foam together and make alteration and options.

If we can get a 3d sand print for casting, may be costly but cheaper than the pattern. print, sand, pour. great for small production runs, really good for prototyping and test pieces. we use this for rapid prototyping and testing new designs and only want one or two. quick and effective. they usually look ROUGH on the surface.

I agree $1000 is a lot to pay for a head. and true restorers and those with money may fork it over, but most of us would have to pass it buy. $1000 for a piece to sit on the shelf ??!

now maybe $500 would be more practical. especially if it was universal across 1929-1932 and LOOKED like the original and performed like one, well maybe better.

I would say we start with WHAT is it going to cost to scan one in and then design massage it >?< This would be step 2

step one would be what is the demand for one ??

It may pay to take a head to a machine shop and get some idea on what it would cost to machine all the needed surfaces. The head bolt holes may be able to be cast in or they may need to be drilled. The locations for the valve guides will also need to be machined and of course a new set of valve guides will be required. The Filling station has already stated they would only expect to sell 10-20 the first year and less after that. Maybe only 25 in total. If you can get patterns made for $5000 that works out at a cost of $200 each. Add on the cost of the casting and the machining and valve guides plus the profit any body who takes this on may want to make and the way I see it you are not going to be able to buy one for anywhere near $1000. I dont need one but I hope I am proved wrong.

Thank You Geraldo and BearsFan and everybody else working on this... Thank You !!

It seems to me that the cylinder head is somewhat an Achilles Heel to our cars and trucks, and you guys are trying to fix that !! Thank You !!

The questions I'm struggling with are; "If I can't get a good one by buying or repairing what do I do ? Do I modify my drivetrain ? Meanwhile my car sits.

$1000 or $1500 for a new head vs modifying or replacing the drivetrain... I'll pay the $$ for the head. Just my opinion.

Disclaimer - I have no experience with repairing heads, maybe its not as bad as I thought...