VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1929-1932 Reproduction Heads for 194 Engine - Group Purchase

I will be speaking with a foundry that has been reproducing engine parts by using a 3D scanner and CAD program to create a permanent mold which is made via a 3D sand printer. Here is an article about the new cylinder they made for an 1912 Brush: http://3dprintingindustry.com/2014/11/12/large-scale-sand-3d-printer-restores-life-1912-brush-car/

Before I speak with them, I'd like to know what the need is for new heads to replace the often cracked version from the 194 engine. A group purchase would be the way to go with this.

I'm hoping the engineers can re-enforce some of the weak spots common to this head, around the valves and a few other spots. Certainly they will use a tougher alloy.

What is the interest out there for replacement heads?

Feel free to call me as well 510-332-9588

I think that this is worth investigating, perhaps they can provide a sliding scale volume price. If they can do a three d scan of a sand mold, once digitized they should be able to make a one off at the same cost as 100 units. So all the cost is in digitizing the head. The foundry costs-to pour the metal and clean up the cast and machining would be the other associated costs. Unless they are a large foundry and want to do a production run.

This is the realm i work in every day, we design components and then have them cast, machined, etc... we also have items 3d scanned and then reproduced. Research and Development !! not much is done via paper anymore, we do 3d models and send those models to foundries, they do flow mold analysis to see how the metal will flow and cool, then we pour and test. if needed make some alterations/ changes, and go again will we are content with the end product.

Question is WHICH Head would they scan and reproduce ?? since there are SLIGHT Variations in the Heads from 1929-32.

Would need to see if there is a Universal one that would best suit the needs and fill the request. unless they can easily and cheaply do the ONE OFF as JMM stated above.

If we have to do one, then we would want the one that best serves and suits the spread and is most effective and efficient across the years.

I would expect that the '30-'31 head would be the one of choice. There appear to be more of those two years still in existence than the other three years combined. It bolts on '29-'33 blocks. The valve differences could be dealt with by seat inserts if that was deemed necessary. That leaves only a slight modification for the longer rocker arms of the '32-'33 heads and cutting the hole in the front for a '29 temp sending unit.

Forgot the smaller '33 spark plugs. If the spark plug holes were made for the 10 mm plugs and then machined for the 18 mm plugs it would solve that problem as well. Could also have an insert for the smaller plug threads if the heads were initially made for 18 mm.

I would purchase one if the right mods were made to secure the head to fit all models...

Mac

BearsFan,

Would it be possible to speak via a brief phone call? I want to convey what I've learned from speaking with 3DIL.

I had assumed that the 194 engine from 1929-1932 would take the same head? Perhaps Chevrolet made improvements/modifications during the 194 engine period?

If this is the case, I would recommend finding a head that reflects the evolution of design by Chevrolet engineers as-long-as we can determine some broad fit among all 194 engines.

One way to deal with this issue is to have final engine block machining done based up in the engine block it will be used with?

On the 1929-32 194 cubic inch engine there were three different cylinder heads used. One for 1929, one for 1930-31 and one for 1932.

the optimal head to cast would be the one that would be most universal. figure cast ONE head, and then have custom machine code programs to machine it per fitment. like stated above, a few differences between the years. Figure cast at MMC and then machine off what it needs based on year. Seems easy to remove material harder to add !! Have not seen a way to Machine Material BACK onto a Piece. Can Weld, but that is harder and also Alters the material composition.

Cast for 10mm Plugs, as going to 18 mm would be easier then doing inserts and trying to go from large to small.

For 29 Heater: Cast solid front, then drill and tap for the heat unless there is something special for this ?? This would be part of the 29 Machine Code.

Valve Seats ?? maybe cast in material to suit worst case scenario then machine the valve seats to suit the year

Longer Rods ?! not sure on this as I am not truly familiar with how the longer rods are factored for the head.

There is no need to cast for a 1929 heater since the accessory 1929 heater is an exhaust jacket type of heater and it would have no bearing on the type of cylinder head used.

There would be a need to cast for the 1929 temperature gauge electrical sending unit however.

Push rod covers are also different for each year. And what about a 207 engine with a 1/4" longer stroke? I once got a super deal on a 1933 Master engine rebuilt and assembled with a good 1931 head. No one could find a push rod cover to fit.

The Hollander interchange manual list some helpful information regarding head interchange for 29-33.

I would be interested in buying an insurance spare for my 30 sedan

Bob W

I would also be interested in buying a spare for my 31.

My recondition would be to look at all the heads and see what was different. My guess, 29 would have been the worst head from a engineering stand point as it was the first one they did. Obviously there was a improvement in 30 and they liked what they had since they ran the same casting number for 2 years. Than they made the 32 head, could it be that the 32 head is really the same as a 30/31 with just larger valves and different drill locations for the different ratio on the rockers? I know the 32 head has "special" cast into it, so what was special about it? There is a lot to consider here.

Also I agree that we can have multiple CNC programs to machine the raw casting and make different heads from one casting.

As to head height, we just make the casting to the tallest head that we know about, machine to height for a year.

Also we should be talking with our suppliers for early Chevrolet parts like the Filling Station, they might be willing to partner with the group to do something like this. They would also be a good way of selling heads to customers that are not members of the club.

Steve from The Filling Station here. I have wanted to offer replacement cylinder heads for 1929-1932 for a very long time. When I last checked (about 20 years ago) the cost then would have been around $1500-$1700, meaning that the head would have to retail between $1750-$2000. This would be out of range for most people (especially back 20 years ago).

Now with the new printing technology, it is time to look at this project again. There were at least a couple of companies back in the day that made aftermarket replacement heads. I have a couple of these that I intended to use for patterns, if the project came full circle. The main difference, other than valves, between 1929-1931 & the 1932 head was the valve lift, which was accomplished with different rocker arms and moving the placement of the rocker arm shafts closer to the push rods. I have not confirmed all of these details, but if that is the case, it would be a simple process to make the 1932 style head, using 1932 valves, and drill the rocker arm mounting holes in the appropriate spot for either 1929-31 applications or 1932. I do not believe it is feasible to include 1933 heads in the scope of this project.

The most important question is how much will it cost and are people willing to pay the price for bringing this product to market? I am certainly interested in pursuing this to help keep our early Chevys running strong!

Steve,

One question that the foundry would like to know in giving a price is the number of heads that would be ordered. That greatly influences cost.

I want to speak with a few outfits that does this work (including the person that is part of this posting) to get a better sense of approaches that could be taken with the modern 3D scanners and printers.

Hello Bearfans,

Could you call me at your convenience to talk about what work your firm does? 510-332-9588. Would be interested to get more info from you on this quest.

The answer for the number that might be sold depends on the total cost. An improved casting over the crack prone original would result in higher sales. Also machined and surfaced will bring a higher price than just a raw casting. While it is possible for local machine shops to do the work, set up for individual heads would be more than doing several at a time.

The sales projection will be an educated guess. Steve at the Filling Station probably has as good an idea of the sales as anyone. He probably would be the logical one to "carry" the inventory. Likely they would be stored near the production site and then shipped to each customer. The freight charges to ship them to his warehouse in Oregon and then to the final customer would add cost. Of course there would be some warehouse, order and shipping costs.

Geraldo...

just to let you know We are a simple manufacturing assembly facility. I personal work in Design/ Drafting with the Research and Development Department. We Do Develop New Products work on Current Product Enhancements, and what ever else gets thrown this way. just over 15 years here, went from the back end, customer drawings and configurations to the front end in New design.

I have worked with reverse engineering parts for our products where the drawings no longer exist or are illegible or we want to make 3d models. We outsource this to a third party company down in NC that most of their work is in NASCAR realm. They scan, arm, etc... I have worked with them on a few projects, and have another in the pipeline maybe this year. I also work with straight out design work in 2d & 3d for parts, components, assemblies of our products, old and new. I have worked with foundries in pouring and molding of our parts n pieces based on out models. In design our goal is few casting as possible and then alternate machinings of that single casting. remember in casting you pay by the pound, so the more material you add the more it cost. then on the machining side the more material you machine off the more they charge, since you are paying for machine time. so in this realm extra material up front for the taller 32 option would make all the casting a lil more, but probably not much. not sure on the cubic volume the head would add. then on the 29, 30-31 head you would pay even more to machine that extra stock off. so doing this way the 29, 30-31 heads would be a lil more pricier than the 32 heads due to this. also have to figure out HOW much would be required to machine off, if it is a good amount, then may have to deal with porosity and flow issues. especially in the machined areas. other option would be to make 2 cast patterns, depending on HOW they will be cast. Sand, Lost Foam, etc... Tooling is the killer in all of this. casting is cheap, machining is cheap, tooling is $$$

But with out the DEMAND there is NO Supply. May have to find a sponsor to front the cost and OWN the Patterns/ Tooling. 3d sand printing may save us on the tooling !! as long as we can get consistent, reliable, QUALITY prints to pour and cast from. and if 3d printing then they maybe be able to make the three options in cast form, or at least the 2 options to save cost on the pouring and machining. print, pour, machine !!

Not to hijack this thread or anything but I'm wondering what the probability is of
suffering a cracked head after a by-the-book rebuild followed by normal driving habits that most of us old car owners practice. We don't usually race them or drive around with overheated engines, at least not for very long. I like to think we baby them too much if anything.
Are there inherent weak or hot spots in these heads that make them prone to cracking regardless of proper torquing down, using proper gaskets, etc. ?
I'm guessing my '32 engine has perhaps 4-5000 miles since a rebuild maybe 30 years ago.
This thread is starting to stress me out.

The 1929-32 cylinder heads are prone to cracking. I have heard of new old stock cylinder heads that were found to be cracked when they were magnafluxed.

If your car is running fine with no issues, then I wouldn't worry about a possible cracked cylinder head.

Valve seats, the spark plug "pockets" and inside some passages to the valves are places I have been told have cracks. I have probably had 10 heads checked over the years and almost all have cracks. Even a couple that were dye and/or magnifluxed to be crack free or only minor cracks in a couple of seats and then rebuilt were found to have cracks once installed on an engine. Small cracks in valve seats is common and not a big deal if the crack is not too long. Used heads without any cracks is very rare.

Man, ain't that the truth!

I would interested in obtaining a couple of price formats. 1. Raw casting price 2. Raw casting with machining. 3. Finished product complete-bolt on ready to use.