VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1912-1928 Latest on '14 Baby Grand

I have been working steadily on the old girl, as posted here elsewhere. She's running pretty good, idles down and doesn't over heat. But I have bigger problems - it's time to reveal what is almost certainly why the car was parked 90+ years ago (to wait on ME to come along and try to solve the problem! Ha!)

It seems the pinion bearing at the rear of the Torque Tube blew apart, and trashed the cast iron torque tube housing in the process. And tore up the ring gear pretty good, too - but I think the ring gear will still serve to move the car if I can get the housing, shaft and bearing back together. It's a mess back there.

I have the torque tube off and apart. Some photos attached - a couple of my broken housing, and then a couple of what the part is supposed to look like. On the photo of my torque tube on the bench, you can see the remnants of the bearing off to the left of the tube. It's a double race ball bearing, obviously not available for the past 80 years or so.

I am working steadily to create a solution. I am going to try to machine the end of the propeller shaft down (which is all scarred up) and sleeve it to accept a modern bearing ID size, and then have a lathe shop turn a big bushing for the OD. I'll use a pair of ball bearings, to replicate the original set up. Then, we'll try welding up the big crack in the cast iron, and fill in the missing material with some scrap steel bits.

The ultimate solution can only be to make a new part, which I will get to work on a little later, but I would like to cobble this back together to at least let me drive the car for the short term.

There's no such thing as finding a used one for a replacement. This design was only used in the very early '14s, and changed about December 1913 or January 1914 to a longer torque tube with an added thrust bearing, and a big U-shaped yoke at the front end to attach it all to the transmission for better support. (In other words, they figured out this was a problem area!). And then for 1915, they went to an open drive shaft on the Model H, a completely different set-up. So my style part was only in production for the first few hundred cars. And of course I have to keep it original configuration as it was built.

Here's what's left of mine.



And laying together on the bench, you can see the remnants of the failed bearing to the left -



And below is what the part is SUPPOSED to look like - the open rectangle is an access to get in and adjust a collar that pre-loads the pinion bearing, and adjusts the depth into the ring gear.

(Well, Photobucket is "down for maintenance," so I can't upload the other photos right now - will post them below a little later. Sorry)

I bet that made a bang when it went !! Good luck with the repair.

Al

OK, now I've got the other photos uploaded.

So here's what the torque tube is supposed to look like.

Talk to me if you need a professional drawing for a machine shop when you
have a replacement made. In a previous life I was a tool designer.

dtm

So here is what the blown up pinion bearing looks like. It is an interesting bearing. Has a double row ball bearing set-up, with a single piece race with two rows of balls. Bronze cages for the balls. What you are seeing is the "blown up" bearing in the first photo, and then setting the pieces back together how it would be assembled.

Looks like a double row angular contact ball bearing with 2 separate outer race cups,which as you mentioned you tighten or loosen for the pre-load on the bearing,and also move the pinion in or out of mesh with the ring gear.Perhaps you could adapt one that has no separate outer cups,like later model Chev 4's & 6's?
Oldsmobile used the same silly idea for one production year-1930.

Looks like a front wheel bearing used on many front wheel drive cars today.

Here's the replacement pinion bearing I have had made. Bronze bushing around the somewhat smaller new bearings. So it will still be a double row ball bearing set-up, as original.

Then after that, a photo of the new collar I had turned. This is the collar just forward of the pinion bearing, that pre-loads and helps position the bearing. The original was cracked, resulting in the threads being out of line.

It's good to know people who have giant antique lathes, and know how to use them!

Does this mean we may be getting rides in Hudson??!!

Remember this little situation? Want to come weld up this 100 year old cast iron nightmare for me? Gonna be hard to give rides with no torque tube connecting the engine to the rear wheels....

Good luck! I still have a spot for you on the show field at the 52nd Central Meet!! You have 11 days to sort this all out - plenty of time! :-)

Instead of welding it together, why not consider machining a piece that would go between the flange on the right and the tube on the left? It would take a Bridgeport end mill, but it should be doable.

dtm

So do you have your tube repaired? I had an idea depending on what part of the country you live in.

Interesting you should ask! I as just getting ready to update this thread.

Yes, a good friend did the welding on the old cast iron. We did it by the book: lots of grinding first, heated the parts before welding, used nickel rod (55 and 99) lots of peening, cooled it slowly in sand. And it is beautiful work, he spent many hours on it.

To help the photos make sense, there are 3.

This first photo is what we started with. You can see that a lot of material is just missing. The rectangular opening is supposed to have a tapped hole at each corner, but only 2 of the 4 remain.



This is what the torque tube is SUPPOSED to look like. This photo is from a friend's restoration of this part.


And here is the beautiful weld job my friend accomplished, which only cost me a steak dinner for 5 hours of his effort! Had a machine shop turn a big "plug" fixture to stick in the end opening of the work pieces to hold them square and tight for welding.

With a little JB Weld, a file, and some black paint it will look like new. You're doing a fine job.

And to continue - so then I cleaned up the significantly damaged ring gear -




And put all the bearings and collar and u-joint and all back together again (yes, I sprayed some black paint on the weld work) -




and then I spent a day getting the very, very stuck leather clutch loose, but I think I made a posting about that in another string here somewhere recently.

And with the rear wheels jacked up off the ground, I ran the engine for a little while with the transmission filled with kerosene to flush it out. I had drained out about two quarts of lumpy black molasses, which I figured was very good - it means the gears inside were lubricated and oily for all those years and therefore not all rusted up. Earlier, I had found the same situation in the differential, too.

And so with the wheels up in the air, I was able to run it through all the gears, and all was well.

But of course, the really BIG news is - with the above repairs made, when I was running it to flush out the transmission - the engine was making the rear wheels go around. For the first time in more than a lifetime.

So that only leaves one more thing, right? Other than draining the transmission and filling it with fresh oil.

Great work! Good luck on the first road test. If it passes that test it deserves a big HUG, pat on the rear end for both Lizzy's.

Does this mean I get a ride this week?!!!

You really should have kept all of these posts in one thread, as it is turning into a great story/journal. Maybe Billy Boy can link it all together when he gets a second...

Looks great!
Have you figured out what caused the crash?
As I look at the damage on the ring gear I must ask:
Do you know it the Baby Grand has the same type of differential thrust bearing as were used for the 490-models? If so, I strongly recommend you to disassemble the rear axle and replace the lousy zink alloy bearing.
Before you dissassemble the rear axle you kan make an easy test that I describe in this post.
I wish you luck!

THE THRILL OF VICTORY.........








And you know what always comes after the "Thrill of Victory" - right?

Swedechevy, thank you for that link. I don't have time to study it and reply right now. The Central Meet begins tomorrow, and we are really pushing to be ready to roll to that. It appears to be the same bearing, which I suspect is the problem. More on that later.

I'm guessing you've got a problem with the feet???

Yep, so after the Thrill of Victory comes -

THE AGONY OF DEFEAT....

After the 100 feet or so of driving shown above, inspection the next day of the Torque Tube weld job showed that the weld had cracked, right on the same old line.



So the tiniest bit of additional driving will quite probably allow the pinion (and therefore the torque tube) to drift forward again, away from the ring gear until the car will not move. I have rigged a haphazard repair which will hopefully allow me to get through Field Entrance Check and onto the Show Field under my own power at the Central Meet, beginning tomorrow. We shall see.

It appears the only real solution is to have a new part made up. And do some more studying on the bearing set-up.

It is interesting to note that this was clearly a problem area. Before Car # 934 was built, in November of 1913, they had redesigned this whole area. The Torque Tube grew longer, and a big U-shaped yoke was added at the front of the torque tube which attached to the frame cross member above the transmission. So less than the first 1000 cars were built with my set-up. (The very first Chevrolet Recall??? Ha!)

Here's the new design that happened within a month after my car was built - my Torque Tube does not have the yoke on the front, it just floats free at the front, behind the u-joint.

Noooooo...!!! There goes my ride!!

My advice would be to feed plenty of neatsfoot oil into the clutch to try to soften it up. I noticed in your vid that it is grabbing quite severely and I reckon that will be when the weld let go. Try not to let the clutch grab is it puts extreme load on the driveline, particularly if it is weak for some reason.

Regards and best of luck
Al

Agree. The "First Drive" you saw above was truly the very first, so I had no idea how the clutch would behave, although I assumed it would be quite grabby. Which it didn't let me down! I was easing it out a 32nd of an inch at a time, and it still grabbed hard. It is either "on" or "off" - there is no slipping the clutch! The clutch had been stuck for decades, and part of freeing it was lots of Neatsfoot. Now that it is free, it is possible to actually get some Neatsfoot oil on the leather surface, which has been done right after that first drive. The next (second) drive will be at the Meet later today, and we'll see if the oil has had an impact yet. And I'm leaving for there now.