VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND NEWER 1949-1954 Overdrive 3-speed and '54 235 in a '52 Fleetline

Has anyone attempted anything similar? I know that I will need to switch to an open driveline as well (I would like to get my hands on a '55 passenger rear axle assembly with the ratio used with O/D - has correct width and basically the same brakes, etc.). I have a '58 O/D trans from a six-cylinder passenger car, and a 235 from a '54 1/2-ton. The truck bell housing looks to have the same bolt pattern as the tranny (haven't tried yet - still gathering parts and info). Does anyone know if the clutch fork on this bell housing is in the right place for passenger car use, is there another bell housing I need to look for?

Rear trans mount will be another problem to tackle. The '58 trans has mounting bosses and threaded holes in the same general area as the '52-'54 3-speed pass trans, but I'm not sure yet whether they are similar enough to be used with the '52-'54 type mount and crossmember.

Any information or insight any of you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Scott

(I originally posted this in the mechanical forum, but in retrospect I thought maybe it should have been posted here.)

What kind of ratio you´re thinking to install?Remember that the rear springs weren´t designed to stand the torque, so if the torque tube is removed something in the way of reinforcement must be planned, as two longitudinal arms and a transverse one, preferably a watt linkage, joining the diferential center to both sides of the frame, so keeping the diff inline at it arc of work.

Mahalet,

As I said, I hope to get a '55 passenger rear axle. If at all possible, I want the one that was used with O/D, which has 4.11:1 ratio. This would work out well, since the original ratio was 4.11 as well (I have a '54 3.70:1 in that car now, with the 216 engine. Okay, but not great). The 4.11 gears would let the car drive as usual in straight drive on the two-lane roads, but give it much longer legs on the freeway. Combined with the 235, this car would be a good tourer.

I agree with you regarding the rear springs. There are spring replacement kits available that are a reasonably simple solution to this problem.

Regards,

Scott

Good thinking line you have.The car will be really interesting. Did you try S10 axles? and a later cam to the 235, maybe hyd lifters and a good intake and ehxaust system?

I have been told that the axle from a 70s Monte Carlo has the correct dimentions to fit the 49 thru 54 chassis, of course you will have to have a driveshaft fabricated, if you can find a Monte Carlo with front dammage you probably get everything you need, You will need a front half of a "U" joint for the tranny and the same "U" joint with flange welded onto the Fabbed driveshaft. Also with the excellent low end torque the 235 in good condition would be able to pull most rear end ratios from 3.72 up thru 4.11. Do you know what the overdrive gear is? The 700r4 is 70% of direct. That would be my choice for a auto with open driveshaft, Patrick's sells adapter kits for several modern transmissions

When your done the car won't be restored, it won't be preserved, nor will it be a desirable "street-rod".

Mahalet, MrMack and Lil' Johnny

Thanks to all for your replies.

Now, Lil' Johnny:

"...If you do the 235&driveline 'modifications' you will have a bride-of-frankenstein car who's only lover will be the man who created it. The amount of swapping you mention is like turning a pig into a prom date...it will Not be desirable (resellable $$$$) when your done. Your performance for "touring" will Not get close to the SBC street rod mods..."

For what it's worth, none of the above really much matters to me where this particular car is concerned. My car is an "old family friend", so to speak - a decent amateur restoration of a car that belonged originally to a favorite great uncle. I have been nuts about this particular car since before I could see over the dashboard and was determined that one day it would be mine.

Unfortunately, by the time I came into possession of the car at 17 years of age, it had seen too many seasons of NJ winters and road salt. It was bad - bad enough that it reallly should have been junked. However, over time I scrounged enough bits and pieces from donor cars to do what amounted to replacing the entire bottom half of the body. The doors came from another two different cars, and the inner and outer front fender from yet another. The only thing original on the engine at this point is the block and the head - the internals are all stock. The fact that I was able to turn this car into a very presentable driver that has turned more than it's share of heads qualifies as a minor miracle.

Yet, regardless of what I or anyone else were to do to this car, it certainly wouldn't appeal to anyone interested in a preservation award or a show car, but then this car never really had that kind of potential anyway. If that's what I was looking for, I would done what most restorers do these days, and started with a nice straight, rust-free original.

Given all of the above, I hope you will pardon me when I tell you that your suggesting that it would be my putting a later model Chevrolet O/D 3-speed transmission and a '55 Chevrolet rear axle into this car that was going to turn it into a 'Frankenstein' of any sort actually made me laugh out loud!

Will doing such a thing to this car make this into a "car who's only lover will be the man who created it"? - maybe, maybe not... but then I really don't give a rat's you-know-what about that. This car and I have been together for over 40 years, and God willing we'll be together for 40 more. In plain language, it ain't never gonna be for sale!

As for some of the other points you make:

"...When your done the car won't be restored..."

Point given, but then I think I've pretty thoroughly addressed that issue above.

"...it won't be preserved..."

Well, yes and no. At any rate, it's far better preserved than the vast majority of the Fleetlines that were built that year! ;-)

"...nor will it be a desirable "street-rod"..."

"Desirable Street-rod"? Now, I do know some folks who might consider that to be an oxymoron!

"...Combined with the driveline swap you have the precise reason why the street-rodders go with
1) Small Block Chevy 2)automatic trans, 3) F*rd 9 bolt rear end..."

Not exactly; street rodders go with this package as much for the flashy performance, neck-snapping acceleration, and all of showy rumble and noise afforded by an SBC. Personally, I very much like the sound of a long-stroke Chevy inline six, and the bottom end torque these engines display when pulling from the bottom on up (find me a small block anything that will pull smoothly from 10 mph in high gear!). If there was any way to do this while leaving the stock rear intact, I'd stick with that too. I prefer to think of what I am contemplating as correcting Chevrolet's only serious error from those days, which IMO was neglecting to offer O/D on these cars. Oh, and about that 9-inch rear end - we NEVER ever say the "F-word" in this house...

"...Sell the overdrive, or swap your 1952 to get a 55-62 Chevy and put the overdrive in it..."

I may consider getting a 55 or 56 210 one of these days, or maybe a '61 BelAir (another family car that brings back fond memories), but get rid of that '52 Fleetline?! I'd sooner part with a kidney!

"...or just leave the 1952 alone as-is..."

Now, if I had done that back in the 70's, it would have been part of a Toyota fender long ago, or worse yet, maybe part of a F...... Nuts! I almost had to go wash my mouth out with laundry soap!

Best regards,

Scott

Well, Scott it is your car and you can expect comments like 'Lil Johnnys from this site. We have many that feel as he does and many that don't, I have seen several cars built as you are planning and for the 49 -54 model Chevrolet I don't think it will decrease the value of the car , in fact it probably improve the value, since there are more of the hobby that modify than don't, In my area it is unusual to find a 49-54 that is 100% stock , most have later high pressure engines and split manifolds with dual carbs and radial tires, many of those I tour with in VCCA have their pre 55 cars modified for touring, with add on Air conditioning etc. etc. and as to putting a smallblock V/8 engine in a 49-54 I completely agree with you for a daily or pleasure part time driver, this chassis and underhood sheet metal has to be butchered to get the wider shorter engine mounted properly.
But the bottom line is some like them , some don't, both sides have valid positions, now having said that.....It is your car and do with it as you like, that is your business, don't take offense with those here that do, after all you did ask for opinions. No one can say you didn't get opinions galore!

Scott,
I would hope you would not take offense to opinions that follow the forums "mission".

NOW, I havent really offered my opinion as what I would do if it was my car, so here goes, I would rig the later model engine up as the old one was and put in some 3.55 gears ala a kit with new bearings etc., sell the 55 O.D. tranny for enough to cover the cost of maybe a new clutch and throw out bearing, new radiator and have the front suspension checked out and replace the worn parts, if there are any. get it to where it is a reliable tour car (it will handle 60MPH with no problems) and then as you will have something nice to tinker with and improve with some 50's era accessories.

Now that is what I would do,if the car was mine, I don't think an OD transmission and open drive line would improve the performance enough to justify the labor required for the mods......

MrMack and Lil' Johnny,

First and foremost, guys, don't misunderstand my lengthy post. I took no offense at LJ's remarks or opinions. I have plenty of mixed emotions myself where the subject of restoration vs. modification vs. hot-rodding is concerned. I just wanted to clarify my position where this one particular car happens to be concerned, and if you read carefully between the lines, portions of of my post were written with tongue planted firmly in cheek.

LJ, just so you know, my tastes lean more towards restoration and preservation as well. As time goes by I would like to own more cars that fit the restored/preserved criteria. However, if you enjoy driving your cars, the reality of it is that nicely restored and preserved cars are becoming increasingly more difficulty to drive safely in today's traffic. This is particularly true where I live in the Atlanta area where you'd better be able to maintain a minimum of 65 mph even on the backroads (and I thought the drivers back home in the northeast were nuts...).


Now, MrMack you stated the following:

"...It is your car and do with it as you like, that is your business, don't take offense with those here that do, after all you did ask for opinions. No one can say you didn't get opinions galore!..."

As I stated above, I wasn't taking offense at anyone's opinions, just plainly stating my own position regarding this particular vehicle in the hope that you all understood where I'm coming from. And you are 100% correct that I got plenty of opinions; unfortunately this is not the same thing as the technical information and insight that I was hoping for, but then maybe I wasn't clear enough in what I was asking.

Thanks again for your advice and opinions,

Scott

PS - MrMack, sorry - I almost forgot to answer your question! Yes, the Borg Warner O/D units resulted in an approximate 30% reduction in revolutions, similar to what you noted in the 700r4 automatics

Scott,
Just thought I'd drop my 2¢ into the mix. I use my '37 coupe for long distance touring and don't personally give a hoot about restoration to show quality. Having said that, I try to keep my car as original as possible and any changes made for touring purposes are made with the thought that someday it may be restored back to original and so, any changes are only undertaken if they are reversible. For instance, I swapped in a '62 235" engine, 3.73 gears and will be installing radial tires this spring. I also wanted an overdrive and happened along a B-W overdrive that had commercially been welded in-line in a torque tube some years ago. Best of both worlds! - I installed the O.D. / torque tube set-up (bolts right in) and stored away the original torque tube in case I ever want to return the car to its' original condition. I also kept the original 216" engine and other parts that have been changed. I believe that now I have been able to satisfy the desire for a more comfortable touring car, while having the ability to return it to its' original condition and to also maintain, or even enhance, the re-sale value. You might want to search around for a similar set-up or even to install an O.D unit in a 'donor' torque tube.
If I can provide any information to assist you, please let me know.

-Bob

Hi Bob,

Thank you for that very interesting idea. I had forgotten about that! Years ago I had heard of someone who installed B/W O/D units in Chevrolet torque tubes - I think there may have even been an ad in Hemmings at one time or another. I wonder if there's anyone out there that still does this surgery? Then I could do what you suggest and put my stock rear and 216 "on ice" so that I can easily revert back to the original driveline in the future. Now, there's some great ideas!

Two questions I have regarding your set-up: First, does it retain the solenoid and governor; and second, what did you do about the speedometer cable?

Regards,

Scott

There are many Model A s with Borg Warner overdrives in there overdrives .Friend of mine had one installed in his A this last fall. It runs along at fifty five or sixty real easy and with a lot less noise. It uses the stock speedometer location and he has a chart with od speeds on the dash .It uses the stock od cable and a off on switch . One bad point is it will not back up in od, I think it cost about $1200 , There was an od made for Chevrolets in the early fifties I think it was named Trucksell. not sure about the spelling. Check some of the A installers if they could do your car .The tubes are about the same. good luck, you have one of my favorite cars.

Scott:

Solenoid: There is no solenoid on the OD I have. There are two manually operated cables to engage or disengage OD pull one knob out and push the other in and vice-versa. It takes the worry of failed & expensive replacement solenoids out of the picture, but you have to remember not to go in reverse with OD engaged, which is not a big deal to remember.

Speedometer: Great observation! The speedometer is off 30% with the OD engaged and I made up a chart to use, but it's a nuisance. A friend showed me a "splitter" he picked up, that mounts between the speedometer snd the cable. It has a electrically operated switch to change speeds. Unfortunately, he doesn't recall where he got it and there's no name on it. I'm going to try some trailer truck supply houses to see if they might have such a beast.

One thing to bear in mind if you decide to have one installed, is the location in the torque tube. On my '37 there's a "depression" in the floor boards, towards the rear axle and the OD is mounted in the torque tube opposite that depression to give maximum clearance for torque tube travel as the axle moves up & down.

-Bob

Scott:
I have just finished reading all of the replies to your initial question. Build your car the way that you will be happy with it, get all of the imput that you can to help in that task, but the one thing that you have to do is keep true to ourself. Any old piece of metal built with love, is worth doing. Many of us get tired of looking at small blocks, automatics, air in every car you see at shows and meets.
I myself am building a 53 chevy, and am putting a 1954 chevy corvette engine with sag 4 speed, and open drive train. The car is a uncut original, and could be easily restored, but you know what, it is my money and my car. I do not care what anyone else thinks.
If you want to talk, my email is professorpat@hotmail.com
Best of luck
Patrick

Hey Scott,
I've followed this topic with great interest as I'm accumulating the parts to do the exact same swap to my 50 Fleetline.
I don't want to dig up the stock vs. modified debate again, because it seems like it's been well and truly covered. Having said that, one of the reasons I bought my Fleetline was that it already had a rebuilt 1960 235 with an Offy dual intake, Fenton headers and remote spin on oil filter swapped in place. I had the same set-up in a 58 Chevy and knowing how much time and money that took to achieve, I was thrilled to find the exact car I wanted, with the modifications I would have made anyway.
Since buying the car 2 years ago I've also installed front disc brakes, a dual master cylinder and power steering, all of which have added to the safety, driveability and enjoyment of my car. I wouldn't reverse any of those swaps and if I ever do sell the car (unlikely) I doubt whether the average buyer (not a hard core restorer) would object to those modifications.
So, I also have a 62 Chevy 3 speed with overdrive ready to go and have been wondering about open drive line rear ends and ratios. My understanding is that the overdrive doesn't give you more speed on the freeway but reduces the revs considerably. I think my current gears are 3.55 and I figured that I should look for the same in a 55-64 Chevy rear. Would a 4.11 ratio be more preferable? And if so, why?

Unless you are planning on drag raceing the car a 3.55 would be a more economical cruseing or "Hiway" tourer. The overdrive will give you about 70% of your RPMs at the same speed. A 3.55 rear ratio will reduce your rpms to about 86% of that of a 4.11. The combimation of a 3.55 and a overdrive will reduce your RPMs to about 56%. The low RPM torque of the modified or stock 235 should cruise at freeway speed at a reasonaly low RPM, It won't need to be downshifted as much a V/6 or rice rocket will. Of course by going to an open driveshaft you present some new problems, The torque tube itself takes cure of the axel rotational torque and you will need to use some sort of a torque arm to keep the open driveshaft rear end from torqueing up and putting extra strain on the rear U joint and driveshaft.

Mark50:
The 3.55 gear set are nice, all around gear to be using and shouldn't need any overdrive.
Most overdrives reduce engine RPM by about 30%. With 3.55 gears, a 30% reduction would take the actual cruising ratio to 2.48 (3.55-30%)which, in my estimation, would not give a engine speed sufficient for lubrication, etc. A 4.11 gear set, would be much preferrable. The gears would get you going from a dead stop with less load on the engine, than the 3.55 and with a final drive ratio of 2.88, the engine RPM's would be a lot better. I don't have the RPM charts available to give you actual RPM differences, but I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Chev Nut will be along pretty soon and he could give them to you. -Bob

If your going to deviate so far from stock, do it easy. A lot less reverse engineering.

Ok give Bob a dollar......Scott, If your using a 235 engine and run a 3.55 rear end the car (engine) will cruise all day at 70 MPH.That would be 3123 RPM on a corrected speedometer.Your original 216 was doing 3100 RPM at 60 with the 4.11 gears.With over drive it would be 2534 at 70-which is great but requires a lot of changes.There I would go with your original thought and install a '55 4.11 rear end with the O.D.The O.D. '58 trans. you have is the same length as a '55 O.D.and any 235 bell housing will bolt up to your 235 engine.The torque of the 235 will not require rear spring modifications.A more easily obtainable 3.70 would also work with the overdrive.The gearing would be a little tall in OD at lower speeds but the 3.70 would work well there.Splicing an OD into your present torque tube is always possible too.The OD without a solenoid that Bob has is from a pre 1939 car as they had no automatic kick down for passing gear and once you were in OD you stayed there until you slowed below 30 mph again.For passing 2nd gear would be used while in OD and it worked well too.Many OD equipped cars in those days used 4.3 to 4.5 rear ends so that had a little more omph in OD.I use 70 mph for an example as that is about as fast as you should push a 50 plus year old car with yesteryears brakes and suspension.As an after thought if you are running a 216 engine the 3.70 and OD will be lugging the engine a little slow for good lubrication to the rods under 60mph............I just could't keep quiet

Bob and Chev Nut,

Thank you for confirming what I was thinking regarding low speed RPM's vs. lubrication with both the 216 and 235. This one of the reasons that I opted to use 3.70 rather than 3.55 gears in my otherwise stock drive train - plus it can still run at 60-65 without the connecting rods hanging on for dear life like they would have with the 4.11's. Overdrive and 4.11's would give the best of all worlds.

Regarding 235 bell housings, that any of you are aware, is there any difference in the position of the clutch fork opening and pivot ball on the '55 and later passenger models versus that in the '49-'54 models? I know that the bolt pattern for the '55 and later trans is different (looks the same as the one on the '54 truck bell housing on the 235 I have), so I'm wondering about the rest of the bell housing. On the '49-'54 bell housings, the fork seems to be at an angle relative to the horizontal centerline - at maybe 8 o'clock or 8:30 when viewed from the rear of the engine.

Chev, that's also interesting that you feel that the torque of the 235 (and by extension, the 216) require rear spring modifications. I suppose if I wanted to stiffen things up a bit to prevent wind-up, I could order up a set of springs that are a bit heavier like the ones intended for the convertible or Bel Air - or even the sedan delivery, and relocate the bolt and pin at the same time.

Professorpat and Mark50: best of luck to both of you on your projects!

Regards to all,

Scott

For the answer to this question you asked about the later bell houseings and transmissions you will probably have a more accurate answer from someone that does this for a living, try Patrick's in AZ, or Troy Langsdon at Stovebolt Engine Company, either of them can supply you with the correct information, and probably with the needed adaptor kit.