VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - GENERAL Body - Sheet Metal, Paint & Wood Matching modern paint colors to original colors

I am currently negotiating with a paint and body shop that does restoration work. They only do about 2 a year working them in around general collision work. They have a full time body man and a part time painter. The shop is complimented with a separate 4 bay auto repair facility. This is a mom and pop operation that has been in business for over 50 years. I am satisfied with the quality of their work.

It seems all the collision/body shops do no restoration work in my area. There are only a few shops that do restoration work. Their work is usually high end, not for the guy looking for work under $10,000. This is where I fit in. I am not interested in show quality work, and am interested in doing some of the work myself. I can disassemble and reassembly the body, media blast it, straighten out dents, cut out damaged areas and fit in new sheet metal(a friend welds the pieces in for me). I fiberglass patch areas where I do not want to remove the metal, fill problem areas with a body filler and sand them to about 80% of being ready for paint.

As I am negotiating with the shop I have asked them to epoxy prime the body parts I worked on last winter and then to use high build primer and block sand them, and seal them with epoxy primer and paint them. With the body I want them to epoxy prime it after I have media blasted it. Then I will take it home for repair work. When I am finished I will haul it back to be finished and painted.

The estimate I have been given for their work is $7000. The work is to be finished by the end of summer.

The tag on my 1941 firewall says my car was originally painted with paint code #290 lacquer. The shop wants to basecoat clearcoat it. I am concerned with the depth of gloss with this painting method, and appreciate suggestions for other opinions, and the rational for them. I also want my paint to match the original Ruby Maroon color. I am assuming the website Auto Color Labratory is a good place to find the correct paint match for a basecoat clearcoat system?

Thanks, Mike

This brings up an interesting topic, being a painter myself. I've never understood the *need* for modern day restorations to be completes with something other than modern day materials. Meaning lacquer vs BC/CC. Please don't take this as a personal attack - LOL - it's just something that I hear all the time and have never really understood the logic. I understand the cars were never painted with BC/CC, but lacquer now days is tough to do in some areas, in fact some areas of the country require water-based paints. Definitely NOT original! As far as the gloss goes, why not have a car as shiny as you can get and just enjoy the heck out of it! I've certainly heard no complaints on the cars that I've painted for other VCCA members, in fact one even won the Best of the Best a couple years ago (Deford's 34 Sedan). perhaps you could shed some light on various peoples wishes to paint with lacquer, because I'm curious!

Thanks! :)

Hi Bryan,

There is nothing in my above post that is suggesting I support returning my car to its original lacquer finish. There is much there that asks for the experience of others in my decision making process. The most critical question I need your help with is getting the correct color match for my car. I have heard other painting systems are available such as urethane, acrylic, and water base.

I am just a guy trying to do my best at restoring my 41. I love the hobby and want to enjoy as many aspects of it as I can. I have no previous experience so do a lot of "wondering" and have some realistic expectations that say, "Mike, get help with rebuilding your engine, welding, painting, upholstering, and I am sure the list will grow as I complete my 13 plus years of restoration."

Thanks to all the "villagers" that continue to help me in the process.

Mike

P.S. It is taking me awhile to adjust to the concept of "shininess." For 13 years the only thing that was shiny on my car was the rings around the headlights and the front bumper. I really struggled with just leaving the car in the condition I found it "battered and worn." I succumbed to a body restoration to best preseve the car for future generations to enjoy.

I think that a modern single stage paint best matches the original finishes of cars in the 30's thru 50's. While I think the BC/CC finish is much nicer to me it just looks out of place.

Mike,

I've now painted a couple of my vehicles myself. I am NOT a professional painter, but I've read a lot, watched videos, asked questions, practiced, and--surprise of surprises--have managed to end up with a couple vehicles that, while certainly not $10,000 jobs, are pretty decent, at least passable. For three different vehicles I have used Autocolor Library, operated by TCP Global. I have been very happy with their products--I have accumulated several original paint chip cards, covering the years of my vehicles (37-40) and the colors that they mixed for me are close matches to the original chips. Autocolor Library has 2 choices of paint, what they call "Restoration Shop," which is a good quality, budget level paint; they also carry top of the line PPG products--and they will mix any color in the Autocolor Library in either system. In addition, they offer single stage in Acrylic Enamel and urethane, and BC/CC all in both systems.

I painted my 38 coupe with single stage acrylic enamel. I used the Restoration Shop line for all primers, reducers, and finish coats. As you probably know and I learned through experience, you only really have one good chance at laying on single stage. Surprisingly I did a pretty fair job, but there is some unevenness in the shine because of my inexperience in laying on the paint perfectly evenly and without any overspray, etc.

I also painted part of another vehicle with single stage urethane. It seemed a bit easier to lay down than the acrylic enamel and the luster is about the same.

For my 38 panel, I decided to go BC/CC, given my research and what pros say about it. If you make a mistake, get some runs, etc., you can go back and fix them. What I didn't realize was that I should not have followed the directions on the can that talk about 2 to 3 coats of base and 3 or so coats of clear--I should have laid down a few more coats of each because when color sanding, I broke through in a few places. The nice thing about color sanding and buffing is that you can eliminate any orange peel, etc., which you cannot do with single stage, especially if there is any metallic in the paint. I didn't anticipate the amount of work color sanding entails, especially on a 3/4 ton panel truck--a HUGE amount of surface. And I was certainly not as proficient at color sanding and buffing as I wish I were. All that said, it has turned out pretty nicely--though I don't have that really deep shine that professionals get with BC/CC; maybe that's more authentic!

At any rate, since you're having pros spray the final finishes, they probably won't run into the rookie mistakes and problems that I encountered. I would say that, although the shine achieved with BC/CC is certainly a lot more distinctive and noticeable than the original finishes, it's probably what the pros are used to and can do well (though they will probably charge more for the 2-stage vs. single stage). I imagine a good painter can make single stage--either enamel or urethane--look close to as good as 2-stage, i.e., they won't have the trouble with orange peel and overspray that I had in painting the coupe.

I hope these comments might be of some help--I'm sure the pro painters on the list will correct any misstatements, etc., that I've made. But as for the color question, I have been happy with the products and the colors from TCP Global/Autocolor Library (and if you want to go top shelf, you can always invest in their PPG line).

Good luck!

Jim

Matching color I would say is not really that big of deal, unless you are being really picky like me. For example, move colors have been match at least once by someone in the club, once you have the codes, you can get just about anything mixed. I would talk with you TA for 41, he might have a code for you, or information that will help.

As to Autocolor Library, I understand these guys are really good....being my best friend is a painter, I just go the paint store or have him help me match.

As to BC/CC or single stage. Each have their uses....like we use single stage on my wire wheels and frame. For example, on my fenders, I've had people tell me how great it was that I used single stage and what a deep black I got.....don't tell them what it really is.

Also, I think if you used a lacquer from today and 50 years ago....it would look much different for gloss maybe, who knows. Maybe the old paint was glosser when new....I don't think anyone has gloss reading from 1932. As to what I would do ...... BC/CC all the way. Unless you tell someone, I don't think they can really tell.

Bruce,
The majority of people can't tell what paint type was used on a given part. However, there are a few that can tell nearly instantly. So far since the original factory color does not have to be applied for VCCA judging how can judges justify point deduction for incorrect paint system? For those that want to produce as accurate a paint surface and color it is a different story. Color sanded and buffed single stage is very close to a factory lacquer surface.

Paint # 290 is Ruby Maroon. I have yet to see a correct Ruby Maroon car.
If it were me I would pick out a maroon on a modern car that most looks like Ruby and live with it.
The original had bronze metalic in it and that is no longer available today.

Unfortunately, many of the old original metallic paints have been discontinued.

I had done some damage loading my 60 Impala in the trailer a few years ago. I am the second owner and the car wears most of the original paint (there were a few taps here and there that were repaired)
I had a gallon of acrylic lacquer mixed because I wanted the finish to be somewhat consistent to the rest of the car. I am only painting a fender and a door. It was far from cheap but it can't hurt to have some extra laying paint around.
The color match created an interesting situation. When ever I have a color made I request a "spray out card" be done before I order the final color. The color on my car is cascade green. The Ditzler paint chip card, the Chevrolet color brochure, and the Dealer Album, did not match each other or the car, and the spray out based on the formula did not match anything! If I were painting the entire car there would not be any problem. I ended up sending one of the valances to the vendor and he supplied me with three different sprayouts, and sure enough he got it dead on.
I had a problem years ago with a color I had mixed without a sprayout made and the color was correct but for a different year that used the same paint number. It is well worth the extra money.
Many of the toners are around because lacquer is used on many musical instruments
Not everyone is as lucky as Bruce who has a best friend that is is the paint guy.

Got a look today at my trunk lid painted Ruby Maroon with PPG Paint. Gene mentioned that originally the paint had a metallic additive in it, well so does mine. The paint is very dark maroon and matches well my original color with just a slight metallic sparkle. I was totally blown away seeing the job the body shop had done. I was not prepared to see a base coat - clear coat finish on one of my car parts. I was afraid to touch the paint it looked so pristine. I am second guessing putting the car back together, afraid I might scratch the beautiful finish. I talked with the painter about their not finish sanding the car until I have reassembled the body parts minus the stainless and chrome. He has agreed that this might be a good idea. Monday I will talk to the shop manager and see what he recommends.

I have spent the last few days finishing my media blasting of the body, vacuuming up all the media and begun the worse of the body repairs. I am using fiberglass body putty to cover rust damaged areas like under the tail lights, under the stainless, the front floor pans, cowl areas and the driver's side rocker panel. The fiberglass filler is very strong, WATER PROOF, but also hard to sand without an orbital sander and 40 grit paper.

Monday, the shop will be over to pick up the body so they can epoxy prime it. After that they will haul it back so I can complete the body work. Then they will pick the car back up and give it a couple of coats of high build primer and block sand and paint it.

Took my wife with me to see the trunk lid. Like me she was very impressed with the color, but also commented that we will need to get a lot of new chrome parts to match the new paint. I agreed!