VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION General Discussions Warning: Ethanol mixtures must be banned from gas!

The water/ethanol and subsequently acid-aldehyde and acetic acid are a critical part of the electrolytic corrosion seen in die-cast carburetor bodies and other deterioration. I promised not to produce an extensive treatise on the chemistry and am trying hard to comply. Maybe more later.

Seems that the most information blaming ethanol is that over time it will attract water and, whilst sitting on some zinc starved casting, do some damage.

While I doubt that even the above is anything to worry about, how about someone manufacturing a purge valve at the bottom of the tank, as for gasoline engines on airplanes, to let the water out. You could then let the separated ethanol and the water out at the same time. Wow! Imagine that.

Just a thought.

Charlie

Not to worry your head about a purge valve. In short order the water/ethanol droplets will eat a hole in the bottom of the tank and let the water out slowly at first!

Chipper,

Now that there right there was cruel and unusual punishment. Hurt like passing an undigested mess of briars. Did too!

Charlie

Now, Now Charlie, didn't think you were that sensitive. Was only pointing out that moisture in a gas tank has some detrimental properties. Since the water settles to the bottom in droplets it can quickly (particularly if the tank is close to empty and oxygen can get to the water) corrode a hole in the tank. The rust keeps the hole semi-sealed so first the water and then some gasoline slowly leaks out. Also didn't know you liked to eat briars. I prefer to pick the fruit and leave them briars for other animals.

Scott, I have sent you a PM.



And a Swedish newspaper informs they have asked 10 incidental Volvo work shops anonymous about their mechanics' opinion as to using E 85 or pure gas to multifuel constructed cars. 7 out of the 10 recommended the owners to use only pure gas, as a result of all the damage and trouble the mechanics have experienced over a longer period after using E 85.

Here is the article (in Swedish):
http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/motor/det-ar-battre-att-tanka-bensin_3505768.svd

The headline of the article:
Ethanol sales collapsed by 22 percent last year after major problems with engine damage. Now SvD Business (the newspaper) reveal that seven out of ten garages recommend owners of ethanol cars not to fill up with E 85. This is the first part in a series of articles on environmental fuel that has failed.

Here is one extract of the dramatic article:
This was not the way it was meant to be leading as to using E 85. Sweden aimed to become a world leader in using biofuels. The so-called pump Act 2006 was the force to build E 85 filling stations. Cars' Ethanol Subsidies were then huge which in the next period caused many smaller stations deaths.

Politically, the E 85 is now increasingly a sourdough. And as time goes by a government commission has proposed a new government study about that blend and the consumption collapse.

"The study of fossils vehicular traffic," which was presented in December 2013 found that the number of ethanol (multifuel) cars in traffic has not declined, but "the decline is likely due to those who have such cars are not filling up with E 85, instead they use gas/petrol."

So may be we could illustrate this with a new version of the old saying from mr. Nader: Ethanol, unsafe at any speed or yearmodel!

Even new Volvos' cannot withstand E 85, they say in Sweden now.

At the moment Europe is importing ethanol in growing quantities, mainly from USA and Brazil and is aiming to reach a blend of E 10 the same year. But the import from those two countries will almost completely end in 2020 due to the fact that the first generation ethanol (made from agricultural material as corn, sugar canes, etc.) will not be accepted imported any longer by the European Union Parliament at the same time. The European countries will deny any ethanol import if it is not made from waist (from wood chopping, even corn and lots of other pure non eatable waste), etc. . So, the sad trouble for US-citizens will be an overflow of ethanol in the domestic market. The farmers will see to that these unsold leftovers most probably will force its way to the gas stations for a higher meddling with the pure gas. Then we will be talking, NOT E 15 but even higher for the older Chevrolets. E 15 is bad enough and a liquid which they cannot use without serious trouble in the long run.

I am already shaking my head and feel sad about this which is most likely to happen in "the homeland of the automobil" in only some few years ahead if you cannot hit back and reserve even one pump in your neighbourhood with low or NONE ethanol added to the gas.

Why not try to help HVA, AAA, AAAC and SEMA to preserve the pleasure of original Chevrolet driving?

Solan wrote, "So, the sad trouble for US-citizens will be an overflow of ethanol in the domestic market. The farmers will see to that these unsold leftovers most probably will force its way to the gas stations for a higher meddling with the pure gas. Then we will be talking, NOT E 15 but even higher for the older Chevrolets. E 15 is bad enough and a liquid which they cannot use without serious trouble in the long run."

So it seems that Solan thinks there will be a backlog of ethanol soon after 2020 and that the corn farmer's of the U.S. will succeed in lobbying congress to have it mixed in with pure gasoline and then sold to us with old Chevrolets because that will be the only thing we can get, or words to that effect. Have I got that about right? Mercy!

a. I don't think the farmers of the U.S. have that strong a lobby.
b. I don't think we will see an ethanol mix over 15.
c. Corn can make a lot of Kelloggs Corn Flakes. Maybe more people will eat them to help out. I wonder what the top cereal is in Norway.
d. Farmers can cut back on growing corn and start growing more "weed." Seems there is a worldwide market for the stuff. Especially since the States here in the USofA are beginning to legalize it.
e. Interesting that "Europe is importing ethanol in growing quantities but will not after 2020 owing to rule that it must be made from wood chippings, etc. Hmm.

Your instant post was an interesting, Solan. No one can say that you haven't fought the good fight.

Charlie

We will have a plant nearby on line in.the spring that will use the corn stalks, so I guess they can send that over there. There is a coop station that has a blender pump that you can get E-10 E-20 E-30 E-40 and E-85, a friend of mine uses the E-20 thet works fine in his 99 Buick and 02 PT crusier.

I think Charlie has some good thoughts ....."d" I especially liked, There does seem to be a world wide appeal to "weed"....and "i heard" there is a lot of waste to a pot plant ....supposdly ONLY the buds are worth anything. SO.....ALL the waste from the,marijuana plants grown from coast to coast could be sent to Europe for their ethanol. just sayin.....

Citing the damage that corn-based ethanol does to automobile engines, among other reasons, two U.S. senators have introduced legislation aimed at reducing the amount of corn ethanol in modern gasoline blends and replacing it with other forms of ethanol.

- See more at: http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/...able-fuel-standard/#sthash.i2Xmtzbv.dpuf

This recent legislation from US-senators is coming up, following the EU opinion about using corn to make ethanol.

But we should not use ethanol/gas of any kind before we know the damage those blends are doing to our vehicles.

and more from welknown car organizations/2013:
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2013/06/25/aaca-joins-with-sema-ama-to-oppose-ethanol-in-fuel/

and finally SEMA's goals in 2015:
http://semasan.com/page.asp?content=federal_priorities&g=SEMAGA

Why not test all the ethanol/gas blends thoroughly over time before we "kill" our older ethusiast vehicles (from before 1986)?

Solan.

Do you thoroughly read the articles you cite in blue? Or, do you just post them for effect?

I only read the first reference. By reading it I came to understand that the gripe was the use of corn instead of molasses to make ethanol. There were two other types of ethanol, as well. There was no indication that corn ethanol was harmful to an old engine. This first reference was just a bill introduced by legislatures who are trying to satisfy the lobbyists for less corn in gasoline so that other types can have a chance to "jump on the wagon." I suspect the others were the same old rhetoric, based no nothing more than talk.


Over time, there has been many attacks on ethanol without proof or sound basis. In other words these attacks don't have a leg to stand on. They simply stir the pot of those who are convinced that ethanol harms everything it touches. It doesn't. It is good for blending in with gasoline and does no harm.

I recently saw an advertisement from STAY-BIL that one should use their product to prevent the upper part (not usually containing gasoline) from rusting out whilst the bottom part where gasoline and STAY-BIL were protection it. I doubt they can back up that claim. Just another way to exploit the common, but false, notion that ethanol is the culprit for rust everywhere. Something like what they over dramatize could only happen if ethanol blended gasoline were left in the gasoline tank for a long, long, time. Far beyond the evaporation window. And that would happen with or without ethanol. Yep.

Ethanol continues to be the scapegoat for everything from rust gas tanks to super-nova explosions. Smoke and mirrors. Nothing more.

Your turn,
Charlie

I read all links more than once before I use them. The two senators are actually on the same line as the EU Parliament in this case. EU has decided: No more use of ethanol in Europe based on corn,(first generation ethanol) after 2020.

Repeated quotes from: http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2013/06/25/aaca-joins-with-sema-ama-to-oppose-ethanol-in-fuel/

As gas stations across the country get ready to roll out gasoline blended with 15 percent ethanol … and as the EPA has begun to recommend increasing the ethanol content in fuel to 30 percent … the Antique Automobile Club of America, one of the largest collector car clubs in the country, has come out in opposition to any mandate that places ethanol in automotive fuel.

“We know what E10 does to our cars; it’s very disruptive,” said Tom Cox, the president of the AACA. “So if we go to E15 … and E20 after that, I suppose … that doesn’t bode well for those of us with vintage vehicles.”

and:
“While there is no mandate that motorists put E10 in their collector vehicles, off-road vehicles, motorcycles or small engines, un-blended gasoline is disappearing from the marketplace,” wrote Herb Oakes, the AACA’s director of legislation, in one of the editorials. “The life span of a vehicle and equipment can be dramatically reduced with the wrong fuel, and vintage car owners could be confronted with breakdowns because of it.” -

Why not read all the articles and links I have posted here yourself?

And this part from SEMA's priorities in 2015?
http://semasan.com/page.asp?content=federal_priorities&g=SEMAGA

E15 Ethanol: Ethanol can cause metal corrosion and dissolve certain plastics and rubbers, especially in older cars that were not constructed with ethanol-resistant materials. The EPA has acknowledged that a 2007 federal law intended to reduce U.S. dependence on foreign oil sets unrealistic mandates on the amount of ethanol that can be blended into gasoline. The “Renewable Fuel Standard” (RFS) requires an increasing amount of biofuel be blended into gasoline each year, from 9 billion gallons in 2008 to 36 billion gallons by 2022. However, nearly all gasoline sold in the United States contains up to 10% ethanol (E10) and there is widespread opposition to increasing that amount to 15% (E15) in order to meet the RFS mandates. SEMA is working with a diverse coalition of organizations from the auto/boat industries to the petroleum, food and environmental communities in asking Congress to reform the RFS biofuel mandates and ban the sale of E15. While the EPA has approved E15 for use in 2001 and newer vehicles, the agency has made it illegal to use in older vehicles for fear of equipment damage. However, the EPA only requires a gas pump warning label for unsuspecting consumers. Congress is expected to consider legislation to reduce ethanol mandates in 2015.

You claim ethanol is harmless. Lots of motoring organizations in many parts of the world are claiming it is harmful, and more damaging the stronger blend people are forced to use. They actually base their opinion on what is really happening, using ethanolblends in the older vehicles in our hobby, and not on what you are claiming on this forum.

Nice try, Solan.

Anybody can talk. Where is the scientific proof that ethanol has solely caused one failure or breakdown in any old vintage car. Both pure gasoline and gasoline blended with ten percent ethanol will evaporate. What is left behind is not good for old car's fuel systems. Generally, in times past, we blamed varnish but now we blame ethanol. For everything.

I'm still waiting for proof that ethanol alone and solely cause some damage that could not be blamed on gasoline gone bad. So far, all I have read or heard is speculation with basis and sound foundation.

Again, a nice try but that pig just won't fly.

Nonetheless, these baseless accusations against ethanol has the whole world up in arms for no good reason. Real shame, there.

Pass me the corn squeezings. Mercy! Ask yourself, "who is to gain?" by badmouthing and eventually eliminating ethanol from gasoline. That may open your eyes a little bit.

Your turn.

Charlie

The above was posted March 2, 2014 on Chat. Since then I have verified that the salt is indeed soluble in dilute acid. Don't have the other solvents to test in them as well.

Now Charlie you can claim anything you want but there is scientific evidence in this case that ethanol in gasoline does indeed cause problems in out old Chevrolets. In case you question the science part, I have a degree in Chemisty and worked 31 years for one of the largest chemical companies in the world. Most of my career was in R&D, that's lab stuff!

Ok fellas..some parts of the last several posts are starting to get close to the need for a "time out". Keep it from crossing the line, please.

You are right. Just trying to set the record straight that there is some scientific based data to show that ethanol IS detrimental to our old Chevys. I could go through the reactions and the reasons why if others can understand the chemistry.

I should also state emphatically that adding antioxidants to modern gasoline is one way to retard the deterioration of the gasoline and also the oxidation of ethanol to acetaldehyde and acetic acid. Acetic acid and acetaldehyde are two of the compounds that do the most damage. Acetic acid is corrosive to most metals and Acetaldehyde can de-polymerize some elastomers (rubber stuff). BTW acetaldehyde is one chemical that makes the morning after tougher. Nuff chemistry for today.

One last question, Prof Chipper .......

Which antioxidants to you recommend to add to the tank ?

My understanding is that both SeaFoam and Sta-bil have antioxidants in the formulation. I have sent requests to both companies to verify that. They likely will not give me the exact formulations but hopefully enough so I can be sure of the general contents. I assume they use BHT one of the most cost effective antioxidants.

Chipper,

I don't question your qualifications as a chemist. If I had you on the stand, under oath, however, I would have a few questions for you.

A. Mr. Chipper, you have heard me stipulate to your expertise, have you not? Good, then please demonstrate the proof you claim to have that 10% ethanol added to gasoline is harmful to old Chevrolets. You may show to the court any items you have dragged in with you. You may use any certified lab examples or any certified proof you may have.

b. Mr. Chipper, Why does not this blended ethanol gasoline affect modern Chevrolets?

c. Mr. Chipper, Have you ever actually seen any affects of ethanol blended gasoline on any metal that you could say was solely caused by ethanol?

d. Mr. Chipper, Do you in fact have any unequivocal evidence that ethanol blended gasoline has ever affected anything in an old Chevrolet that could not be explained or blamed on anything else, even poor maintenance or neglect?

e. Mr. Chipper, Could one expect to run an old Chevrolet regularly with non-blended gasoline and not experience any problems owing to gasoline?

f. Mr. Chipper, Could there ever develop a problem owing to blend-free gasoline even when it is left in a car for years on end without replenishment or use?

f. Mr. Chipper, when served corn food at Cracker-Barrel do you push it aside or do you slop it up like a ... well, do you eat it and let your tummy sort out the ethanol or do you push it away?

f. Mr. Chipper, what do you have against poor ol' Uncle Ed?

g. Mr. Chipper, the simple fact that farmers grow corn and Southerners depend on a right steady source of cornmeal for their cornbread, is no reason to against corn and ethanol.

Your honor, I rest my case and make a motion that the plaintiff's claim be thrown out for lack of evidence. We request punitive damages be awarded for pain and suffering and as a bar for further unsupported claims against the producers of ethanol.

(There follows an supporting uproar in the courtroom and the judge throw us all out.) It was worth it to clear the good name of ethanol. Was too!

Charlie

As I indicated earlier, this is getting close, now closer, to crossing the line of friendly debate. Maybe some should simply agree to disagree and move on?

37Blue
Moderator

I think it crossed the line, I'm out.

Thanks for the product names, Chipper.

Do a search of Seafoam. It contains among other things alcohol.
I don't understand why anyone would add more alcohol to the already 10% alcohol gas.

Do a search of Sea Foam material safety data sheet for contents.
Make your own Sea Foam for less than a dollar.