VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION General Discussions Warning: Ethanol mixtures must be banned from gas!

Sorry, but you are unfortunately forgetting that the cars you are referring to in south are built for using the ethanol mixture they use. Our old vehicles are not. Simple as that. In the future let the cars built for multi fuel driving run on that mixture and our cars still be able to run on clean gas E 0, and I will be very happy for the solution for both.

There are good reasons for why some of the big the car makers do not want to give full guarantees for cars/engines older than from 2001 as to using ethanol mixtures.

Uncle Ed,

Welcome back from the dark side. We'll kill the fatted calf. Make merry, etc. Just let us know when to show up out there at your place in Iowa.

Solon,

It seems that you have been taken in by all that anti-ethanol rhetoric and now, finally, all that silly garbage has been exposed for what it was all the time. Smoke and mirrors. We'll welcome you over to the enlightened side and extend the hand of fellowship to such a fine fellow as you.

All you have to do is post that you were wrong and that you are sorry. That would be the least penitence for leading the innocent and uninformed astray. Note: The usual apology is sealed only after you have drunk some alcohol. On the house, of course. What is your pleasure: Maker's Mark, Wild Turkey, Crown Royal, JB, JD or, East Carolina University's favorite, Early Times.

Best,
Charlie

Ha Ha, OK Charlie Thanks for the welcome back but I still don't think we are going to change anyone's mind, but the debate is fun!
Ed

These links from US show there have been a lot of problems these last years as to using ethanol in gas for vehicles and engines not built for the E mixtures:
http://fuelinjectorsinc.com/articles/the-trouble-with-ethanol/

http://fuelfix.com/blog/2011/02/07/ethanol-pumps-big-problems-for-small-engines/

Avoid ethanol in your enthusiast vehicles.

Such a shame to waste all that corn, when it could be added to yeast and water , fermented ,and distilled into moonshine.

Jack
Moonshine is the is probably 1 of the best use of corn, the other is feeding the needy people of the world.
Tony

I agree to using corn and other agricultural food production as food for people, not using that for ethanol production. Many governments and people in many European countries have argued agaist the ethanol production based on f.ex. corn and similar.

But the waste of food production and the remainings from the production from the forests could be used for ethanol purpose. And the ethanol production from such activity is coming bigger in Europe`and South America, why not in USA?

I am not against using ethanol in modern vehicles and engines, younger than 2001, because they are prepared for the mixture. My car is not. As I want to drive my car as original as possible I naturally want to be able to run my old car without changing a lot of parts due to the clearly negative influence of the ethanol in the gas. Not too much to ask for, I hope?

OK, so how many of you actually eat FIELD CORN? It is different than SWEET CORN which is what most people eat. True you can make corn flakes and corn meal out of field corn it but that takes a very small portion of the field corn raised in the USA. Most corm is used for livestock feed and the left over byproduct from ethanol production is excellent livestock feed and used widely in the livestock industry. There is plenty of field corn left over to make what little food that is actually consumed by humans. If corn is in such short supply, why is the current price so low? BTW, sweet corn is not used in ethanol production.

An accurate cost to include ethanol in fuel is extremely complicated to calculate. It includes the increased cost of crops not grown because of switch to corn as well as other costs like transportation, chemicals, run-off. Ruined equipment, damage repair/replacement, additives to counteract effect of ethanol, lost performance are also to be considered. Some of those costs are not trivial.

Chipper,

All the things you mentioned are either a plus for ethanol or nonexistant or indeed only trivial in the full consideration of matters.

You may want to be more specific instead of throwing everything you can think of up against the wall and see what sticks.

If it were not so, why then do we continue to put ethanol into gasoline? Why do we skip the non-ethonal pump and go to the ethanol one? The few cents difference? That is a good testament to the trivially of the matter. Also, no conviction by those opposed to ethanol of their claims.

Sorry, if this comes across that I am trying to be smart-[bleeped] on the subject but knowing your education and experience I still couldn't let you get away with such a open claim.

Specificity is the key here.

a. How does it cost more to transport corn from Iowa than oil from the middle east and other foreign sources? May even be a plus for ethanol.

b. Run-off. Not sure where you're going with this one.

c. Damage repair/replacement. What damage, etc, can be attributed solely to the use of ethanol? A gasket now and then? They have to be replaced whether using ethanol or not. Usually on a scheduled basis or predictable basis even with straight gasoline.

d. Additives to counteract {the} effect of ethanol. Who in the world uses any additives for this purpose. Snake oil? Not needed and trivial.

e. Lost performance. How much and why does it matter. From what I've read it is very little and well within the range of acceptability. A trivial one for sure.

Your turn.


Best,
Charlie

Charlie,
It is obvious that you have not delved into the subject of ethanol blends to the extent needed for an accurate and complete assessment of its attributes and deficiencies. The sad part of the subject is neither have our representatives or regulators.

If you want I can discuss the BTU content of ethanol versus hydrocarbons (ie gasoline) which results lower fuel mileage for E-10 versus E-0. Then continue with the corrosion and combustion characteristics, solvent properties, production costs, degradation products, etc. Then we can examine the alternates. Be prepared to get into some complicated and confusing facts and calculations as there are a multitude of factors that must be considered and accounted. Then the discussion of the differences in effectiveness of adding oxygenating agents to carburetored engines (the majority of production when those agents were specified) and fuel injected engines (current production).

In the USA what makes sense on a true technical or scientific basis is not often what is done. Science has been ignored, bastardized, and selectively considered depending on what someone wants to try to prove. I operated in that arena during my last years of employment and tried to educate (in vain) those in power that had the attitude "don't try to confuse me with the facts when I already have my mind made up!"

Hello Chipper,

Thanks for the comments. Still there is one very serious matter yet not brought up here: Ethanol is one of the most dangerous, risky liquids you can ever transport, whatever transport you use. Gas is much less dangerous to transport.

The firebrigades in several US states have already found they will have to ask for clear limitations on how often the fully loaded "ethanol" trucks are allowed to drive on the Interstate roads. Even "ethanol tank" trains will have to accept limitations on the regularity on the tracks.

The brigades have already had to ask for more money for better, far more efficient equipment, specially designed to fight ethanol explosions and fires.

So may be the growing transport of pure ethanol can be a lot higher risk for the people near many main roads and railway lines, than they want to experience?

I note that no one replied to my question of how much FIELD CORN do you eat.

In Texas sometimes immature field corn is sold as roasting ears. The other problem is that corn is in a large number of foods that are not recognized for their corn content. Yes, corn tortillas, chips, corn dogs, corn bread and a lot of fried food coating is based on corn meal are mostly recognized but sodas with corn syrup, cake mixes and a whole raft of other foods contain corn products or byproducts.

whether field corn is used as livestock.poultry, food, Post Toasties, corn bread, it is just another step in the human food chain. It's use as motor fuel is just a political effort to appease another special interest group.

Chipper, thank you for your reply. I agree that these products contain corn. Although I have never seen immature corn sold as roasting ears here in Ia.
My next question is have you seen a shortage of these products or a significant price increase above the rate of inflation since the start of ethanol production? I have not researched this just curios if the production of ethanol has really effected the food supply.

Our state motor pool stopped the use of higher ethanol fuels due to the added cost related to a drop in mileage. There were also some maintanence problems.

Here below is a link regarding the severe risks by transportation of ethanol:

Ethanol presents firefighters with several unique challenges. For instance, ethanol fires cannot be put out with water; instead, they must be smothered with the careful application of alcohol-resistant foams. In addition, once the gasoline mixed into E-95 (95-percent ethanol, 5-percent gasoline) and E-85 (85-percent ethanol, 15-percent gasoline) burns off, the pure alcohol flame becomes almost invisible to the eye. Ethanol vapor is also flammable at a wider range of concentrations than gasoline, meaning any vapor will ignite more quickly. So if firefighters don't bring the proper fire-suppression systems and techniques to an ethanol fire, they stand the risk of adding water and making the fire grow.

Read the full article here:
http://thebulletin.org/public-safety-and-transporting-ethanol

Dramatic and striking sceneries will occure if/when an ethanol accident happens!

A gasoline fire can not be put out with water either....in fact water will spread the fire.

Harvest started this week and hauling corn to the ethanol plant. They have put up signs on the entrance to the plant and one claims that one truck load ( about 1000 bushels ) will displace 66 barrels of foreign oil.
I just thought I would fan the flames.

I love it! lol And yes a gasoline or oil fire cannot be put out with water.

The problems associated with making our old cars run successfully on ethanol fuels are minimal compared with restoring a car from the ground up. Ethanol is here to stay so we may as well get used to it. Biofuels of Australia have an exellent web site which is well worth having a look at. Sweden it seems hopes to be free of fossil fuels by 2020 so I would imagine Norway would be as well.

Again...I hate the damage ethanol has done even to my small engines...It's a crying shame, that I don't have the time for...Curse you Ethanol...! lol

When you may be finished with the next restoration you may risk that you cannot drive safely any longer due to the growing ethanol blending in gas. By as low as E 10 the damages will accelerate, and by E 15 you will have trouble using that blend in your old vehicle. Something to think about?

I am afraid you do not have much knowledge about Sweden and Norway as to the present status of ethanol blendings. Sweden made an attempt some years ago to reach gas/E 10 already in 2010. The normally used gas has reached E 5 by now, 4 years later.

In Norway Statoil will close down the 98 E 0 within the next months but will keep 95 E 5 under the new name "Miles". Unox has no ethanol yet in 95 & 98, St1 has E 5 in 95, Esso/Exxon
has no ethanol in gas, due to the high turnover of D 07 bio diesel they sell. Shell has E 3,5/95 and E 0/98.

All hoses and other pump equipment will have to be changed before the stations will change to higher blending than E 5.

It is fortunately (for us old car nuts) a hopeless dream to think of a fossil free fuel here in 2020, even if EU has a goal of reaching (fossil) gas with E 10, generally in all the 28 membership countries.

The Norwegian government has (officially) so far no plans to change to a blending of ethanol exceeding E 5.

Denmark is not eager to start blending ethanol into gas, as they want to use food as food while Finland has a position more to what Sweden is aiming at.