VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1929-1932 weight of oil

What is the recommended weight and preferred types of oil to run in an original engine. 29 Chevrolet, 214

The engine in a 1929 is a 194 and you can run 10W-30 detergent oil.

Or just 30wt

In regards to your query; "PERSONALLY" I'd be using a brand name, Straight 30 Weight Non Detergent oil. This especially is so if the engine has not been rebuilt!!! You would be wise to drop the pan and clean it and the oil pump pickup. Just my 2 cents worth.

There has been a great deal of literature of late on the impacts on older engines caused by the significant reduction in ZDDP in engine oils. As some may know, car manufacturers (and government) have been reducing Zinc content in order to prolong the life of catalytic converters among other reasons. The zinc performs an important role in coating cams/lifters and other heavy wear parts etc with a film to protect against wear and prolongue the life of these older engines. Recent studies I have suggest latest grades of oil (SM grades) have 600-800PPM of ZDDP while earlier oils had 1200-1500PPM, or about twice as much zinc. My local engine rebuilder recommends looking for the older spec oils, or buying oil specifically blended for older engines, and with higher ZDDP content. He sells a Valvoline product which he indicates meets these objectives and one paper (by Lake Speed Jr.) indicates Joe Gibbs Racing also makes a similar suitable product. I am sure if you google the issue you will find a lot of good advice on quality oils for these older engines. In summary, the weight of the oil is not the most crucial issue in oil selection.

There was no Zinc in oils till after WWII and really isn't necessary in the lightly loaded valve train of a 1930's engine.
Non-dtergent oils have no zinc, no anti-foaming addive, no anti corrosion additives, no detergent, no anti of any thing that is in modern 10W-30 oil.
Your engine has no high pressure to any bearings and the main bearings get their oil from gravity flow.....10W-30 flows well when cold and will pass through the bearings faster....best oil to use.

I totally agree!!!

JYD, you totally agree a 10W30 weight oil is best? OK, not disagreeing, but is there not some consideration to be given to the make-up of the oil and not just the viscosity. Is the latest standard (API SM) considered just fine by the experts for pre-war engines, or for 50's and 60's engines? I'm not saying it will not suffice, but my question is whether there are products on the market which are perhaps better for the lubrication of these engines.

One article I have is written by Dave Cole, editor of the "Way of the Zephyr", a publication of the Lincoln Zephyr Club. Specifically he makes the arguement that modern oils are not good in older engines with "flat tappets", and specifically cannot protect a camshaft that has flat bottomed valve lifters. He makes clear statements that engines of the 30's and 40's with their primitive valve gear design still need a fair amount of ZDDP in their motor oil (even if they did not have such oils way back)if they are to last and perform well. We need to remember engines way back needed overhauling on a regular basis as lubricated parts wore out

He suggests finding a stock of SAE30 SH, or SJ or SL, and if not available, use of GM Camshaft and Lifter Pre-Lube (part # 12345501) or Engine Oil Supplement, GM#1052367, either of which can be added to API Service SM oil at a ratio 2oz per quart.

I am no expert in this field of science. But the articles are pretty convincing and my engine builder who has the largest service around here swears by this practice when he is rebuilding engines, and advises us all to consider keeping this in mind. I'm taking his advice.

Cool! If you like a specific type of oil for your cars then I suggest that you stick with that oil. It is all a matter of preference.

Myself, I have been using 10W-30 oil in all of my cars for the past 50 years and I currently use the modern 10W-30 oil in all of my cars with no problems. All of the cars have high mileage too. Our '69 Impala had 400,000 miles on it when the car was totaled in an accident. My '68 GMC that I have been driving for over 40 years is pushing 300,000 miles. Our '84 Olds has gone 200,000 miles and it is our daily driver and it is still going strong. My 1970 Impala had 300,000 miles. My 1951 Chevrolet that I have been driving for the past 53 years (drove the car to high school) has 130,000 miles and my 1932 Chevrolet has 60,000 miles and the original engine has never been touched. Sure, the '32 smokes because the rings are shot since it sat in a barn for over 20 years but the car runs great and I still drive it with no problem.

With all of those miles on the camshafts in all of the above vehicles, the cams sure don't seem to have a problem with the new 10W-30 oil. Seems to me if "it ain't broke no need to fix it".

What do they say about old dogs!! The articles and my local expert suggest you may find the latest oil spec (API SM Grade)a big problem eventually. Just sayin'!

We all make personal choices. I've been using Valvoline 10/30 oil for over 50 years in every car I have every owned and never had a oil related failure. I now use 5/30 in all my cars without any problems. Change your oil early and often and you should have no problems no matter which oil or brand you use.
some people use K-mart or wal-mart oil with no adverse affect.
HAPPY

Gunsmoke,
I don't know your local expert and his (her) qualifications so can not comment on the accuracy of the advise. I suspect that the advise is on the conservative side and based on it only costs a little more in time and money to use a "better" product. When that is compared to the potential cost from an engine failure it makes some sense. It is sorta like an insurance policy. In the case of engine oil there apparently is little potential for an engine failure due to the using more zinc additive.

This is not a universal situation as some of the "beneficial" additives for engine oils can cause premature damage. An example is higher viscosity oils or other products to reduce oil burning or loss. In our older Chevrolet engines that is a sure slow death for piston rings, piston pins (wrist pins) that are lubricated by the splash or oil mist in the crankcase.

I can understand why some in the "Lincoln Zephyr" following believe as they do. A few years ago I spoke with a machinist that was looking for followers for a V-16 engine. He explained that the followers were as rare as hens teeth and some 40-50's trucks used that same follower. While the problems of the "Zephyr" certainly may be valid I don't know if it can be simply applied to other makes even if the design is similar. I believe we have enough history and experience with the old Chevys and I don't think lack of ZDDP is universally considered a problem other than perhaps when installing a new cam. I do agree the extra ZDDP in a fresh engine can be beneficial and certainly not detrimental.

What will te problem be with SN oil? Almost all oils today are rated for SN service. They are the same oil as before but semi-synthetic.

Te L.Z. V-12 engines was the worst engine produced by Ford. Many lasted less than 30,000 miles. A lot of owners replaced them with a Ford/Mercury flat head V-8 engine.

It should be pointed out that zinc has not been totally removed from engine oils, just reduced. So there is still zinc in engine oils.

There are also two other anti-scuffing additives added to SN oils. They are sulfur and molybdenum. To get the SN rating the specified amount of all three (including zinc) must be in the oil.

That reminds me of the time decades ago when the lead was removed from gasoline and we had to drive our old cars on unleaded gasoline. The big hype by the "experts" back then was that without the lead additive the gasoline was going to ruin the engines in the older vehicles by causing the valves to burn, valve seat recession and etc. There were articles after articles about the "problem" in all types of car magazines as well. The "experts" later found that the old cars would run just fine on the unleaded gasoline.

When they added lead to gasoline they had to raise the price
for adding the lead, Then when unleaded gas was forced on us
they added the cost to remove the lead. Go Figure ?

If you look at the simple logic of this discussion, the car manufacturers and oil companies worked together 30-60 years ago to create an ideal oil product that they could recommend for their cars with confidence. The ZDDP (along with other additives) was in there for a very specific reason, i.e. to improve engine longevity, and to ease the break-in period. To now sugest that this important element in the oil can be reduced by 50% or more without consequence for those same engines is a bit Osterich I think. Any metallurgy/chemists out there who can weigh in on this topic?

I spent many years working for a large Chemical company in automotive chemicals. We did a lot of research on oils, additives, and aftermarket products as well as coolants, brake fluids. I don't worry about lubrication using any of the SAE/API rated oils. I do take steps to use assembly lube and in some cases special "cam" lube for break in. Otherwise just change the oil and filter on a regular basis.

I am not an expert (over 50 miles from home or leak under pressure) only long term old Chevrolet owner that drives many of my cars.

What is zinc additive and what does it do;
In simple terms zinc is added to oil as a very fine dust. It is actually metal like. It leaves a thin coat on metal to metal surfaces.
Zinc does actually nothing for the oil. Doesn't help a thing. What it does do is give some protection to and area if the oil film breaks down (is not present).This can happen on the lifter to cam lobe area as it doesn't get direct lubrication in an 8 cylinder V type engine. With the straight 4 , 6, or 8 cylinder engine the cam is right along side of the crank shaft and gets plenty of oil thrown on to it. On a V type engine it is up above in the center of the block and much of the block casting shields it from oil splash.Also the V-8 engines have a higher valve lift, larger lobes on the camshaft which require stronger valve spings to keep the valves closing at higher engine speeds. The Zinc smooth coating also fills in the pores of the metal during break-in.
Chevrolet coated the pistons and camshafts since the mid thirties with a zinc (tin) coating to assist in breaking-in properly.
In my years at a Chevrolet dealer parts dept (1950-1977) I never saw a straight 6 Cyl. engine lose a cam lobe. This was unheard of. The first we saw were the 1955 265 engines. With poor oil change habits they would loose a cam lobe by 50,000 miles.
In 1957 Chevrolet added extra Zinc to the factory fill of oil and rasied the first recommended oil change from 500 to 1000 miles to aid in engine break-in. Also they made the cam break-in oil to add to the crankcase with the installation of a new cam or new engine.
A lot of makes had cam problems in the '50's. Chevrolet had the biggest problem with the 305 engines in the late '70's....for owners that didnt't change oil often enough. I don't know how much Zinc was in the oils in the late '70's but it reached its peak in the '90's. (1600 parts per million). Since then it was reduced to 1200 PPM and then 800PPM - where it is now.
This amount is sufficent for a cam in a brokin-in camshat for most engines.The exception would be new cams made today with questionable hardening. At one point there were a number of those made in a far away land.
In my opinion from what I have read the 800 PPM is engough zinc for a straight six Chevrolet engine UNLESS IT HAS A NEW CAM OF UNKNOWN QUALITY. The cam to lifter pressure is very low on our "old" engines.
Where Zinc could be an advantage is on a V type engine With a high=performance camshaft as stronger valve springs are required.
Also too much Zinc can cause problems also.Probably the best oil to use if in doubt is Quaker State Defy which has 1200 PPM and not overly expensive. The 15W-40 oils have had the Zinc reduced to 800 PPM for the same reason the gas engine oils were reduced.
Next time you change oil look into the bottom of the bottle after you empty it. You will see some of the black Zinc still in the bottom of the bottle. I always shake the bottle well before pouring.

My dad used to say an expert was "a guy from out of town with a brief case". I think what you say Chev Nut deserves a briefcase!. Well said, to the point and I think captures the essence of what we need to know. Your advice should be helpful to all Chevy owners, especially those with V-8's. Thanks.