VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1912-1928 28 6v starter

I've made a lot of progress on my speedster, thanks to all of the experience and help I've received here...

This old motor is as-found, as is the starter. When I attempt to start it, the first 10+ times I hit the button, the starter operates but the gear does not engage the flywheel. When it does, while the power is down, the start will turn over the engine, but, just doesn't seem to want to engage. I suspect the armature is not spinning fast enough to rotate out to engage.

I have doubled up on the ground wires and made certain the battery cable is the larger size.

Is this telling me the starter is due for a rebuild?

I have taken it out and dug about 5 pounds of goo out of the various cavities of the starter, and seems to operate about the same. Appeared the brushes were OK, not worn down...


Thanks
Ed...

If your starter was full of "goo" it is probably time for a complete rebuild. Also, check out your Bendix drive. The pinion should turn freely on the worm shaft for it to properly engage the flywheel. If the shaft is sticky that would keep the pinion from engaging the flywheel when the starter motor is engaged.

Good point. I should have added, that I have checked this out. Appears free movement. My 'novice' interpretation is the starter is 85 years old and probably due for a rebuild. I have had it out, the armature seems to roll readily, the bindix appears to move when given enough speed, and the power going to it appears to be satisfactory, and the ground appears sound. What else is there.... Aside from being 85 years old...

Its something about writing it down, makes you think 'Wul DUH!'

Thanks for the input

Ed...

Certainly sounds like it is not spinning fast enough to me. Given the Bendix spindle is clean it should engage quite easily. Make sure the pinion winds forward smoothly and nothing is catching.
A basic overhaul is reasonably easy yourself. Goo inside is a bit of a worry. What sort of goo? Oil? I would pull the starter apart(quite a simple operation, just be careful to tie the brushes clear of the commutator to allow it to be removed)and clean it GENTLY. The old insulation is old so just remove the goo slowly. Petrol is good but US fuel has a lot of alcohol in it and this may attack the old insulation which is usually shellac based, so maybe kerosene would be better followed by a good blow out with compressed air. The main thing is to remove all the excess goo. Do not risk damaging insulation in the quest of absolute cleanliness. If the insulation is damaged a complete rewind may then be necessary.
The next thing to check are the commutator segments. The mica separators should be below the copper segment surface, or else the brushes will bounce and arc as they jump over them. If the mica has to be cut down (about 1/64 lower than the copper) then a hacksaw blade that has been ground down on its sides to remove the teeth 'set' is the ideal thickness. Ideally the commutator segments should be skimmed in a lathe first to ensure it is true.
Finally the armature end bushings must be perfectly snug on the shaft with just enough clearance to allow free spinning. This is because the armature main body runs very close to the field windings and if the bushes are worn grounding or poor performance will result.
Before doing any of this I would first check that your foot starter switch is making good internal contact. This switch takes huge amperage and over time the contacts arc burn away giving poor connection. To check this,firstly disconnect the lead at the starter motor. Next connect a sturdy jumper lead direct to the battery + terminal and then firmly connect the other end to the starter post whereupon the starter should instantly operate properly. If it doesn't then your problem is with the starter. Finally make sure there is also good earthing back to the battery and this can be done by making sure all the metal surfaces of the starter where it mounts against the engine are clean and not painted. From your comments it seems you have already checked this anyway. Hope this helps.

Those are a lot of great tips!

Keep in mind if you are going to work on the starter yourself that generator armatures are undercut between the comm. bars and starter armatures are not.

Skipper do you know why? Not obvious to me why there is a difference. All I can think of is the amount of power handled by the brushes/commutator.

Because the starter uses hard copper brushes and the starter motor doesn't turn over fast enough or long enough to require undercutting.

Thank you. I knew you would know. Learned something today.

Learned that information from a very good friend of mine that used to have a starter/generator repair shop for many decades. He even used to hand rewind and varnish dip his own armatures as well.

I spend a little more time on it this weekend.

I moved the 'doubled' ground cable, to connect on one of the starter bolts. I also wire brushed both ends of the cable and polished up all of the connections.

Since then, I have started it 4 times, with the starter engaging properly each time. No doubt this old-timer will need rebuilt at some time in the future, but appears this has postponed that event.

As for the goo in the starter, from earlier... It looked like it had been in a flood at some point, as it appeared to be dried mud. Had found something similar when I opened up the clutch.

When I bought this rig, it had been converted into a Doodlebug. The original rearend removed, the frame shortened, and a Ruckstal 2-sp truck rear-eng mounted in its place. It even came with a Model T radiator/shroud, cowl and engine cover. I am nearing putting this back on the road as a speedster, complete with 28 Chev bodywork from the cowl forward. Still has the original engine/trans.

I have learns lots from reading posts here, and gotten quick valid responses, when I asked my own questions...

Thanks for the patience and help....


Oldn_rusty