VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND NEWER 1949-1954 Judging Question

For this question, I will say we have 2 identical cars, in year, make, model.

One car is an original, pristine condition.

Second car is NOT an original, but in pristine condition, as well. Second car has had a total nut and bolt restoration.

Assuming both cars look the same in every aspect of appearance, will they be judged equally?

Will the original receive higher marks, due to being original, or not?

My thought is the original has more value, because of not being molested, etc., while the total restoration will receive good marks, but lower marks, since the total restoration was re-created from something of a lesser value.

Any thoughts appreciated. Trying to clarify these thoughts.

First of all it would be up to the eyes of the judges.....If ten different groups of judges were judging you may get different results.
The original car is bound to have some "age" flaws so points would be deducted. If the restored car was done to perfection it would have no or a very few points deducted.
Just from my experiance I can not recall a unrestored car getting a best of show award.
The is a class for the "perfect" unrestored car in judging (dosen't have to be perfect) the HPOCF class. This is for original or mostly original cars. It encourages owners with such a car to keep it original and still have it judged. It really dosen't get judged but rather certified as being original or have a number of original features.

If I understand you correctly, the HPOCF class would be the area where the unrestored, but original, cars would gather.

HPOCF stands for ????

I believe its Historical Preservation of Original Chevrolet Features, or something along that line. Interestingly I just looked in the Judging section and could only find the HPOCF but no breakdown of the meaning.

Thanks.

The car is certified to be original in four different areas.
The exterior, interior, engine compartment and underside.
Up to 25 percent restoration is OK for each department. Such as if a fender was repainted, floor mat replaced or valve cover painted....A rusty old engine with no original paint remaining would also fail as an example.
Car must pass in at least two catagories to get an award.
Example, my 1950 is a very nice original but the previous owner panted the engine compartment and underside. The interior and paint is very good original so that gets me an award or HPOCF placqe.

Copy and paste from Judging Manual Table of Contents (I searched the pdf (ctrl-f) for hpocf):

HPOCF (Historical Preservation of Chevrolet Features)

That being said, a glossary of terms and acronyms would be a nice addition to the Judging Manual.

Cheers, Dean

What about adding additional "bling" such as fog lights, bumper guards, gas tank lid guard, bug & wind deflectors, traffic viewer, white walls, visor type stuff to my business coupe which I understand was kind of a no flash working mans type car in the day. Would this hurt or help or be neutral in a resto type class?

Not sure I want to hear the answer since I already have shelves full of blister packed items.

The more extra "goodies" that you add to your car the more of a chance that you will have for point deductions, especially if some of the accessories are incorrect.

A cars with $1000 worth of rare accessories or none at all would get the same starting points.....One "incorrect" accessory and there will be points deducted from the starting 1000 points. Style and year of car make no difference.

This is long and may be nonsense to you. You may want to just skip it. Read at your own risk.

Gene, I agree with your assessment.

But it doesn't make sense to me. In my way of thinking any AUTHORIZED AND CORRECT YEAR (you know what I mean) accessory should count for points added not deducted. And, the amount of points added consistent with the rarity, originality and condition of the accessory. For instance (to name just a few accessories):

a. Spot Light = >10 points added.
b. Fog lights = >5 points added.
c. Fender Skirts = >5 points added.
d. Locking Gas Cap = > 2 points added.
e. Umbrella carrier = > 3 points added.
f. Umbrella > 25 points added
g. Tail pipe extension > 50 points added (Think "bat wing.)
h. Radio > 2 points added
i. Under body or Reel antenna > 23 points added
j, Peep mirror > 1 point added.
k. Driving light > 5 points added (if two driving lights then deduct 5 points no matter what).
l. Foot scrapers > 10 points added
j. Accessory steering wheel >25 points added
k. Heater control/cut-off at water pump >50 points added ( for you CC)

Well, you get the picture. What is the point of us looking high and low, tracing every lead, spending mocha bucks trying to get the elusive correct accessory only to find that for judging it doesn't count for squat. nonsense

Further, even if you have the correct umbrella, for instance and there is some fading, there are now points taken away from the starting 1K. Merciful heaven!

This lack of points for the accessories doesn't make any sense at all. Especially the part of deducting points. If it isn't perfect then at least the judges should be instructed to just ignore it. Better yet is to accept my sound logic and add a few points. Major points for a fragile accessory like a umbrella or for an also rare accessory like a bat wing or something!

Whoever thinks the loaded with accessories car is equal to the "Plane Jane" like maybe a 210 without any accessories, even finder skirts to fill that awful looking fender hole, is from Pluto or somewhere. Maybe . Just my opinion. Anyone agree with where I'm coming from?

And another thing: I would rather see a nice original, well preserved car than the best restored car, anytime. There factors to be consider, and not lightly, when witnessing a nice original car from the past. Thus they are superior, period. Eye-balling a restored car is somewhat like going to Rome and marveling at some artifact to only find later that you were salivating over a fake, that the original is stored under lock and key system of vaults that would make Jack Benny jealous. Don't get me started on this.

Charlie

Charlie,


I think you are already started!

Adding the accessories increases the "bragging rights" and the value of the car to some people. I view them as interesting but not necessarily increasing the value of any vehicle. Preserving a given vehicle as it was originally manufactured (or restoring back to as close as practical) are my goals. That is preserving history. Altering history is a competitive sport practiced by too many people in my opinion. Guess that is why I don't get too excited about getting a trophy or award. I know I did as good a job as I could and offered it so others could enjoy it also. It is the internal satisfaction that really counts.

It's my opinion that judging is the process of determining how close to original in quality a vehicle is. If it were a beauty contest to judge bling we would perhaps be more interested in Cadillacs and Packards rather than Chevy's.

I remember back a long time ago when I was in high school looking at a car that had lots of accessories on it the remark was it lokked like it drove through Western Auto with a magnet on it.

We start with a perfect score of 1000 and deduct for incorrect parts or accessories and flaws.

One thing I do not care for is that the owner must have documentation if a judge questions something but the judge does not need documentation if he thinks something is wrong.

One thing needs to be taken into consideration when adding accessories is when was that part introduced. Example is a guy working with a 1932. There were certain accessories for the 1932 model year. If you're looking in a 1936 catalog & it shows an accessory you like & it says 1932 to 1936 doesn't mean that accessory is correct for the 1932 model year. That should be a points deduction...Joe

Joe, That runs true with parts as well as accessories.

True. Wasn't thinking that far ahead...Joe

The problem with the documentation angle is you don't know what the judge is doing. You get your judging sheet back two weeks later to find that points were deducted for an item that was correct but the judge didn't know the difference.

Just to make it clear:

In my earlier post I tried to indicate that the accessory should be for the car, the right year, and that it was for the car year just as listed in the accessory manual or brochure for that year car year. In other words the RIGHT thing. No Hollywood skirts and such. Like shark teeth rims on a 41. All of us who run them, and would have our car judged, know that we should take them off or be willing to suffer points for having an INCORRECT accessory on there. We know that going in. At the same time the CORRECT trim rings should not cost us any points owing to their condition.

Chipper, I understand your post about not being in the trophy market, so to speak. Nonetheless, I do think that we all warm to a pat on the back or appropriate applause and praise when deserved. For instance, I know of people who perform and put a lot of effort in their performance for nothing more than a little applause when they are through performing, whether on stage or playing music. I have enjoyed walking up to get a small trophy (even though I had the only car in the category). Still the heartfelt applause for me bringing the car was appreciated and made for a rememberable occasion.

Back to the accessories: I would be highly disappointed if I ever found an original batwing and had a point deducted because it had exhaust dust on the bottom side of it. That's a ridiculous example, but one that will demonstrate the dilemma for those of us who like to attach to our cars, nice looking (well that's a oxymoron for the batwing) and CORRECT accessories.

A CORRECT accessory should never no never, no matter the condition, cost any points. At best it should add points. At worst merely a wash. Nothing more. Somebody needs to rethink this rule. Maybe a committee came up with the one we have now. You know, like the committee that was to design a horse and came up with a camel. Or was it a giraffe. Who cares? You get the point.

The current rule on CORRECT ACCESSORIES makes no sense at all. Maybe it was made by someone (or committee) who had low-end "Plain Jane(s)." Mercy! What a mess!

Charlie

I would hope that the documentation if requested is because the judge lacks personal knowledge and once submitted it will help to educate him. Kind of like on the job training.

Charlie I disagree with your thoughts about the accessories. What is the value of adding a junk "correct" accessory? It will only distract from the appearance. I don't know of anyone who would be proud to display their junk accessories on a quality vehicle, be it restored or original.

Its my opinion if there is any deductions being made the owner should be made awear...If anything the owner would know exactly what it was for...The score card is too non-discriptive...

Charlie....I don't know how you do it but you have a real knack of taking a simple question and turning it into a nightmare with your answer. At any rate, your idea that accessories should add points above the maximum will never fly because ALL CARS have to start out EQUAL in the judging process. Adding points to a car because of additional accessories is not fair to the other cars that do not have any accessories at all. To keep things fair, that is why all cars start with a maximum of 1,000 points each and then the points are deducted accordingly from that point.

With your theory, it would be the same as saying that a fully loaded Impala should start with more points than a "Plane-Jane" Biscayne because the Impala has more parts.

Accessories should be judged the same as the rest of the parts on the car. If a part is defective, incorrect or not up to snuff then points are deducted....and since accessories are parts, they should be treated the same in the point deduction process.

So, Charlie.....how do you come up all of this stuff anyway?

Geeeez

Boys, boys! Stop your fighting and go to your rooms!

Hum....it seems to me that you are the one that started it!