VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1929-1932 1929 landau Imperial sed convt, Trim!

Sorry mate,but Holden was bought out by GM prior to '29.The cars would probably have beeen sent out CKD and assembled at one of Holdens factories using local materials to avoid import tariff duties.I've got service bulletin documentation in my Oldsmobile literature collection that covers Olds from 1929 to 1932,and it all has GMA as part of the letter heading.

I have a sales folder from GM of Antwerp, Belgium where the Imperial Landau was advertised as "De Convertible Landau Sedan" and the language is Flemish. Are any known to have survived in Europe? Some of the body details are similar to custom bodies built by Hooper of London and Hibbard & Darrin (Americans) in Paris, reported to have built three prototype bodies for the 1929 Chevrolet, but their design was not used. Sometime in 1930, Thomas Hibbard was back in the USA working for GM and assigned to Cadillac, H & D became Fernandez & Darrin. A 1931 Chevrolet is remarkably similar to some Hibbard & Darrin designs.
Going back to the posts regarding the possible reasons Imperial was discontinued, I suspect it was due to customer complaints of a leaky roof. The depression or a decline in sales was not the cause, the stock market crashed months later at the end of 1929. Remember also that the '29 Cabriolet was discontinued at about the same time. Chevrolet and other low priced cars still sold fairly well until June of 1931, according to the Sept. 1932 issue of Automobile Trade Journal.

UPDATE: The research on the production of the 1929 Convertible Landau continues. More Convertible Landaus have been located and based on the body numbers of the existing vehicles at present we are up to a total of 15,806 Convertible Landaus produced. More updates as we locate other existing Convertible Landaus.

At 203 replies and still counting(pardon the pun)is there not some way we can close this file off and wait for some new information before opening a properly titled one. Just a thought from one of the jealous few who do not have a '29LISC, including the trim!

When this thread started, the following information was provided, and notwithstanding we may all not agree, the fact is that we have no "proof" that 300 is wrong.

"Pre25Chevy4 answered:
Gene - The Cleveland Fisher Body plant on Coit Road supplied - Chevrolet closed bodies to the Tarrytown while the body plant got started there in 1924-25 period.
Fisher Body Ohio Company, E. 140th and Coit Road, Cleveland, Ohio. Incorporated in 1920 for $10 million to build 5 story $350,000 Fisher Body Plant with 1,500,000 sq ft to supplied the Chandler car. It opened June 1921 and built the first Chevrolet Sedan body the night before Thanksgiving, 1921. By 1924 the employment was 7,000 and producing 600 bodies daily. Over the years the Cleveland plant was used to build the low production bodies like the soft top, roll-up windows, 1928 Chevrolet Convertible, the 1929 Imperial Landau and Cabriolet [blank plant code] the 1955-57 Nomad [plant code CL], and the Cadillac Eldorados [plant Code EP?] It was a metal fabrication plant when closed in August 1983.

Skip - I would say the IL with body number of "__1098" is an example of a Cleveland built Job No. 8860 with a blank plant code. This IL body would have been ship to one of the 9 USA assembly plants for mounting on the chassis. Since the Fisher Cleveland plant was not under the influence of the next store Chevrolet plant, I think it is possible that Cleveland used the same series of number sequence for both 8860 and 8890 production. That is the next Body No. 1099 could have been a Job No. 8890.
KenK"

What is wrong to publish one side of this discussion as fact in the last G&D:

At the outset I struggled with the notion that management would make a sudden decision to stop production of '29 ILSC's for any minor reason if sales were in the 15,000 plus range per year, as they were selling far fewer cars than that in other model lines. While the reported problematic "leaking" of the roof may have been an irritant, sales of 15,000 units in 8 months it would seem would have led to a waterproofing solution rather than a stop in production.

The notion that all these "specialized bodies" were assembled at only one plant (Cleveland) and then distributed for assembly to completed chassis all over ther country (and internationally) may make more sense. After-all, many other manufacturers sold this body style so a folding rear roof was not a new invention. So while the jury may still be out on this debate(JYD aside), I think there is still research needed and a case prepared before any definitive answer either way will be ratified by the supreme court (the VCCA Board)

CuChiRVN,
You issued a challenge to prove that 300 is wrong. Guess I will ask you to prove that 300 is right. Just be aware that because it was initially published in some unknown document and then repeated in others does not prove it is correct. If one of them has a reference to an official GM document containing the manufacturing data then it might be more creditable. Lacking that it is just an opinion or guess.

The best documentation would be several official GM documents clearly stating the number of any given model or body manufactured. Lacking those documents then, data from the Fisher Body plates riveted to the firewall is the best information currently known to be available. That is the data being used to help determine if the number of 300 is reasonable or not.

I do know of one '29 Imperial Landau Sedan that was sold in 1929. It was the first new Chevrolet in our family. It was only kept for approx. 6 months because of numerous problems.

Since Chevy Chatter has issues with longer posts (BBB is working on it) I will have to make my reply to CuChiRVN and Gunsmoke in several posts: In part this is what Ken K posted on Chevy Chatter later after doing more research:

"I just presumed on my part that the 1929 Convertible Landau Sedan was discontinued in the January-February 1929 time period after building 202 units in December in Flint. This afternoon I tried to find out more data on when the Convertible Landau Sedan, Fisher Body Job No. 8860, was actually replaced in production with the 1929 Imperial Sedan, Fisher Body No. 8910, in mid July 1929. "

"The last listing I found of the Convertible Landau Sedan was in the June 8th issue of The Literary Digest that reported over 600,000 6 cylinders sold in less then 5 months."


"Then in several newspaper adverts it was announced that the 1,000,000 6 cyl was built on Aug 5 in Flint and it was an Imperial Sedan which had just gone into production a few week before." Note: The Imperial Sedan replaced the Convertible Landau.

"So from the above it looks like the Convertible Landau Sedan was build into June 1929. On August 3rd it stated that samples would be sent to the 5000 Chevrolet dealers. Now the 8,000 number seems possible.kenK "

Ken further states:

"Our beginning data base shows that open cars with windup windows like the 1929 Sport Cabriolet [Body # 423 and # 28860] and the three Convertible Landau Sedans had no Fisher Body plant codes stamped in front of the Body #. This is because they were built in the Colt Ave plant in Cleveland."

"Notice the Imperial Sedan as a closed body was built in J for Janesville, WI. It will be interesting to see when Mike's # 8101 was built? If it was built after #28860 in May or June, this would prove that the Sport Cabriolet and the Convertible Landau Sedan Body numbers used their own number sequence and were not combined. kenK"

According to Mike's car serial number and his engine serial number, his Convertible Landau was built in the Flint factory at the end of May of 1929! As Ken said above, "If it was built after #28860 in May or June, this would prove that the Sport Cabriolet and the Convertible Landau Sedan Body numbers used their own number sequence and were not combined." Our extensive research has also proved that the Cabriolet and the Convertible Landau Sedan body numbers had their own sequence and were definitely not combined.

Sorry CuChiRVN, but the information supplied in the last G&D is accurate and we have the research to back it up, including car serial numbers and engine serial numbers by dates and by the individual factories. On the other side of the coin, can you give us documented information to support the "only 300" made theory? I, for one, would be glad to see the documentation and I'm sure that those with Convertible Landaus that are working with me on this research would love to see it as well.

If you don't have any documentation supporting the 300 figure then anything regarding that figure would be pure conjecture on your part. I know that you want the 300 number to be true because you own a Convertible Landau, but the documentation and proof that we have received so far completely disavows the 300 production rumor, and the documentation proves that actually thousands of Convertible Landaus were made.

Skipper,
If someone whats to see the entire post they can copy the individual posts and then past them into a word processor program. That way it will read easier.

Great idea Chipper! I had a lot more documented facts to my original post but due to the limited size of the posts because of the current problems with Chevy Chatter, and to avoid a lot more posts, I had to condense my original reply to CuChiRVN and Gunsmoke. It is amazing as to the number of existing Convertible Landuas that we are coming up with.

Several years ago, I knew of 7 '29 Imperial Landau Sedans in Texas. Some have been sold and moved to other states. With that many in Texas (that was not a large market for Chevrolet in 1929) it was just not credible to only have 300 produced. Extrapolating to the other 49 states (based on population) would have made the survival rate nearly 100%. Even 2013 Chevrolets do not have a 100% survival.

You are correct. And, we are on the trail now of 8 Convertible Landaus that were sold to a taxi company in Portland, Oregon in mid-year of 1929. That is 8 of them at one time in one place!

To start I hope you are not mad, because I am not. Just for discussion, if Pre25Chevy4 was correct, and all the bodies were built in one plant then shipped to various assembly plants for final production ... would you agree, or accept, that engine and trans numbers would necessarily be dated days weeks or months after the body was built. Also, that final assembly might have been any time up to the last day of 29 assembly? If not, do you have something that shows Pre25Chevy4 is misinformed?

Nope....not mad at all. Our research indicates that Ken's later information listed above was correct that the Sport Cabriolet and the Convertible Landau body numbers were not combined and they were made in various factories. You will read more about it in the G&D when our research is completed. Even with your scenario of bodies being shipped to various plants, virtually thousands of the Convertible Landaus were built. If, during our research, we did find that only 300 were made I would be the first to tell you. However, that is not the case unfortunately.

Good. Facts will be helpful. Without facts neither the 300 or the more than 300 will ever be able to authoritatively take the discussion. I am sure you will agree that things like seven or eight sold on the same day is (probably) a fact, but only about a sale, not about how many were for sale. And a member who's family bought a new IL then sold it after six months as a lemon, is a fact, however, it is not a fact from GM as their reason for stopping production.

One of the best facts that we have is from cars like yours with the cowl tag and the car serial number information. At any rate, we have documented facts that totally and completely disproves the 300 rumor. And, the amount of existing cars that we are finding also eliminates any thought that only 300 cars were made. Since the 300 production figure has been eliminated, we are now trying to find out, as close as we can, the exact total production of the convertible landau, which is up into the thousands. We are also finding cars manufactured late in 1929. The best documentation we have is the existing cars themselves and documentation from Chevrolet.

Enough on this thread. I will save the rest until our research is totally completed.

Manufactured or assembled in late 29?