VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION General Discussions Warning: Ethanol mixtures must be banned from gas!

This has to be stopped before we damage all our older cars. They even have trouble to use E 5.

And the smaller a gas driven engine is (lawn mover etc.) the bigger chance of destroying your machinery if you mix ethanol into the gas tank.

http://www.biofuelsdigest.com/bdige...ory-hurdle-for-e15-ethanol-blends-in-us/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe...hanol-is-on-the-way-to-your-gas-station/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/11/30/aaa-e15-gas-harm-cars/1735793/

Corngas... tomorrow's scam today! Yuck.

This post may be deemed to be political but is not intended to be. Just remember that the "corn gas" guys claim to be helping to not destroy the planet. They have occupied the "high" ground and have ignored the "inconvenient truth" that using the food grade agricultural product uses more "energy" and resultant "pollution" than it saves. Now with switch grass and other proposed sources it makes any rational an all encompassing discussion or understanding impossible. They point out that it is uncontrolled "greed" that drives their opponents, implying that they have pure and clean "skirts". We are guilty before we even open our mouths.

The hypocrites control the discussion by defying others to prove that something can't happen or something is impossible (like changing their minds with facts).

Technology marches on...! Who can stop it...? Joe Average says, "Who cares...?"

I live in a community where boaters abound, but with little concern...Hopeless in California.

Our government in Aus. forced this upon us due to the "greens" party. They made the servos (gas stations) remove unleased 91 pumps so that ethanol could be used.
They reckon its 20% greener, however tests reveal its 25% less efficient, does this make it worse?
They brought in with insisting that we should be up 8% use within 3 years, been longer than that and ist just over 3%
Aus. can only supply a max of 8% yet the pumps occupy 33% and if it goes over 8% up go the costs.
I will never use it, not even to clean parts
Chris

Apparently this is not a new idea......

Great photo Ken, of course this is from the Cornhusker State (and probably a non-drought year). There's a corn alcohol plant about 7 miles from me and some days I can smell the "corn squeeze" aroma from home. 10% has been good in my 2000 Silverado 5.3 and my 2009 Malibu 3.6 but I would not use any greater proportion of ethanol in those two. I do not use it in my small engines more due to plastic carb line or internal parts issues rather than any octane concerns. I do question the real environmental and economic efficiencies of mass producing row crop based fuel. Maybe the Chevy Volt will help point us in the right direction. Jim

See posting by KEN48 as history repeats itself. The folly of yesterday is the folly of today because of lack of knowledge of the general public and the inability of our congress to do what is right rather than what is convenient.

Re - the inability of our congress to do what is right rather than what is convenient.
Hear hear!!!!
Chris

I posted this two or three days ago, apparently did not do it right. One other thing about Ethanol, recent google the amount of subsidy producers get from the Government came to $1.51 per gallon. That is a pretty good incentive to try and sell more.

My intention is not to be political, and by that provoke the forum rules here. But in order to try to stop the authorities from destroying our older cars, I hope to be allowed some space in our forum. I am not feeling political but deadly serious about the avoidance of ethanol in gas for my old vehicles and small, even modern engines.

The situation of today is worse than last year in USA and it will be so in Europe thereafter. The pumps in Norway deliver E 5 in 95 gas, and E 0 in 98. The oil industry claim they will not change the 98 by mixing ethanol in that quality. But for how long? The staff at the stations does not know what mixture they supply and the pumps are not properly labelled either. As long as the oil companies do not have to label any gas with more than E 5 they can easily "by mistake" supply your car with more (f.ex. E 7 - 10).

They had permission to add 5% biofuel into the diesel here. After some time a lot of people discovered than they had been given E 7, while the car makers only granted E5 to be used in their diesel cars at that stage. We cannot trust the companies after such stories. The final result was that the limit was allowed higher (to 7%) after some discussion.

They only tell you that all cars can use the E 5 without any risk. We know they are wrong or telling half or less of the story. Both HVA in USA and FBHVC in GB has already, since 2008, stated that they have found that statement NOT to be true. There are too many checked/controled stories and tests of damaged engine parts, fuel lines, tanks, even paint with link to the ethanol as the "bad guy". Under certain circumstances the risk of a fire in the engine department is much higher when adding ethanol in the gas. With ethanol the carburettor also vaporizes the gas much easier, so you have to cool the system.

The ethanol is also generating water in the tank and dissolving the tank sealing inside the old tanks. Those loose parts are passing the fuel line and hit the inside of the hot carburettor with a possible and dangerous uncontrolled fire as the result.

If you have had no problem using E 0 and parts on your car change sooner or later after filling E 5, while all other circumstances are the same, you have found the bad reason: Ethanol.

As far as I know the subsidies from the US-authorities have luckily stopped now after around 30 years of paying the farmers to make ethanol out of the corn etc. Still the producers can afford to continue the work to force more ethanol into the pumps. E 10 is well into the market and even E 15 has been introduced in some states. Both will make our old cars useless after some years driving and/or storage. The E 10 is only guaranteed safe by the car makers with production year younger than 1999, and the E 15 they ONLY guarantee from last yers models in 2012. Dangerous for our cars? YES!

The blended ethanol/gas of today is not any cheaper here in Norway than the non-ethanol gas. The oil companies fill from the same storage tanks only adding some small extras into the gastankers to divide the brands.

And the drawbacks of producing ethanol from crops are many. The ethanol fans are telling fancy stories about all the happy advantages when using their mixture, but they are hiding more than they should be allowed to.

Our vehicles are in danger, even when using only E 5, and specially when we also have seen and understand the oil companies are not willing to treat us consumers honestly.

I have been in discussion with the Norwegian Petroleum Institute and they are more occupied with not crossing the limits of the standards the European Union has decided, than avoiding our old vehicles from being destroyed.

We have to be on the alert every time we fill our old cars, and specially all the small engines (lawn movers etc.)Luckily you have one or two web pages in USA telling where to find E 0. The same is coming in GB, but in Norway we have to rely on the staff, but they are not knowing what they are selling.

I will stick to 98 which seems to be the best alternative so far. Cost some more but will not ruin my car as long as the oil companies avoid ethanol in that quality.

Solan
As you stated "dont trust the oil companies", they do whatever they want and that doesnt always comply with the regulations.
Tony

I am not a fan of ethanol gas however I had a lawnmower that lasted 36 years and a snowblower 30. Both were still running when I got rid of them.We have had only ethanol gas in N.H. for at least the last 15-20 years. I just think its a big waste of money with zero benefit-unless you grow corn. Also have a Jonsered chainsaw bought in 76 that still runs, though the carb was rebuilt last year, but the dealer didn't charge me as it didn't repair the saw. The pick up coil was bad. Can't blame that on the gas.

As some people say ! First Liar doesn't have a chance.

I had a weed eater that I used for years and it ran great. Loved that thing. In our area the mandatory Ethanol crap came on board only a few years ago. Ran the weed eater on the Ethanol a few times and that was the end of the weed eater! Had to buy a new weed eater that was made for the Ethanol junk.

I got a weedeater in 98 and it says to use additive if not using their 2 cycle oil. Only lasted 2 seasons and seized. Bought another and it is still running. The first was a Sears and the second a Ryobi reman from Harbor Frt. They are identicle other than labels, even the instruction manuals which had the same info if using E10 gas. The Sears dropped a needle brg which lodged between the piston and wall. Probably not gas related. Still running the HF reman Ryobi.Their recommendation for additive is Sta-Bil which I have never added to the gas/oil mix. I do however always run it out when using it so no gas remains in the tank or carb. The manual did mention the additive to prevent gumming and water dispersal.

To avoid any misunderstanding in my previous writing here:

E 5 = gas with 5% ethanol, E 7% = with 7% ethanol or biofuel - in diesel.

E 85 = with 85% ethanol. 95 is regular gas, 98 (still ethanol free, at least for some time) is Super/Premium gas.

HVA = Historic Vehicle Association www.historicvehicle.org

http://www.historicvehicle.org/News...1/12/23/Washington-Nixes-Ethanol-Subsidy

http://www.historicvehicle.org/News...24/Kernel-Knowledge-One-man-on-a-mission

http://www.historicvehicle.org/News/Articles/All-Articles/2011/01/19/E15-Update

https://www.historicvehicle.org/Resources/Resources/Ethanol

FBHVC = Federation of British Historical Vehicle Clubs
www.fbhvc.co.uk

See the federation's newsletter from December 2012, where you will find a warning about filling/using E 10.

When it comes to E 10 or more, don't buy it for your older vehicles, specially when E 5 already is making storage and driving dangerous and unsafe.

An article about ethanol and the trouble it makes in a future will arrive in G&D this year.

I hope the users here can write about their experiences with ethanol mixes in the gas and possible solutions to avoid destroying our hobby cars and small machinery.

Here in Oklahoma, which we still call the Oil Capital of the World, we are cursed with way too much E10 and E15. My wife and I don't use it; normal gasoline is still available. The discount stations have both so that they can put low prices on their signs.
If you do use spiked gasoline, Sta-Bil and Marvel Mystery Oil are excellent gasoline additives that should make almost anything work in an emergency.

I just come over this message, dated 01.07.2013 from Sweden concerning subsidizing the ethanol production in USA:

These are not good news for our old vehicles.

The U.S. tax credit for cellulosic biofuels that should have gone out last december 2012 has been extended by one year. The reason is that U.S. authorities believe that the ethanol industry needs additional stimulation to increase the production of biofuels with cellulose as a raw material. United States has a quota on refiners to blend both ethanol with any raw material base and as cellulose-based ethanol. The industry has protested against the penalty that they had to pay when there has not been cellulosic ethanol available on the market. The tax credit amounts to 1.75 per liter.

In Sweden and Norway it will be mandatory to label each pump when the oil companies start to introduce the E 10 some time around 2017 (they say). Recently the EU found that a lot of the production of biofuels many places around the world is not an environmentally sound one. It has stopped the work to expand the use of the ethanol until the ethanol only will be coming from waist of crops and trees, and not from fully eatable crops to be used for people and animals.

Some times the politicans are showing some good sense, I think.

Here are news about the battle around ethanol:


http://www.historicvehicle.org/News...=Email&utm_campaign=HVA%20Newsletter

and

http://www.biofuelsdigest.com/bdige...rers-wants-supreme-court-opinion-on-e15/

Our National association (LMK), American Car Club of Norway (Amcar), Carl Henrik Stoermer (former long time boardmember of LMK and close connected to FIVA) and myself have been to a first official meeting with Norsk Petroleumsinstutt regarding the ethanol issue and the serious challenges our vehicles may experience in the future. We had a constructive talk and agree to communicate again in the future to the best for all parts engaged in this. The Institutt is an umbrella organization for the four leading oil companies (Statoil, Shell, Esso and XY) in Norway, and coordinate many parts of the common business towards the authorities, the politicians and the consumers.

We are hoping/working to keep 98 octane free from ethanol (E 0) for years and not more than E 5 as 95 octane, but the future could be facing E 10 as the standard quality some years ahead.

Good work Slolan, I wish could something down here in Aus.
However we can still get 91, 95 and 98 luckily. That stuff is a massive conjob and I wont even use it in my modern cars.
Chris

Chris
I think you will find that 91 octane is nearly always E10 with 95 and 98 non E at this stage. There is E85 available but not in Goulburn though Canberra does have some.
I also hope Solan's efforts come to fruition and not only in Norway.
Tony