VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - GENERAL Body - Sheet Metal, Paint & Wood Acrylic Lacquer Retarder

Looking for a quart of unopened Ditzler (PPG) acrylic lacquer retarder DTX 1140....please send me a PM if anyone knows where to find a quart or even a gallon...Billu38

I went nuts trying to find ditzler double deep black nitro 12 years ago. Even phoned PPG and spoke to them and they basically blew me off.

i contacted hibernia restorations in NJ.........google them, and pretty sure you can buy acrylic lac thinners.,. They say they have medium dry time thinners which is what they sold me. I painted 3 front fenders in their nitro black in sept and they all came out fabulous and i had never sprayed anything before. I printed out and read all their instructions from the web site.

They have been advertising in hemmings motor news for as long as i can remember. Just went to website and acrylic thinners slow is $60 gallon and medium is $55...........QUARTS are not available. Do not mix nitro and acry paint on a car, has to be whats on there already. Read website

mike

Acrylic Lacquer Thinner is in stock in all of the local automotive paint stores in my area. Just bought a gallon of the stuff last week for $14. They all stock slow, medium and fast.

Also, I have lots of black Nitrocellulose Lacquer in stock in my shop that I use for projects.

Hi. I believe one can use acrylic lacquer thinners with nitrocellulose lacquer paint can you confirn this.
Cheers Paul

Retarder may cause the paint to soak-in and bring up "bullseyes" and scratches in the repaired panels. I would not use it unless absolutely necessary.

Any auto store that deals in shop materials will carry thinners. It is what we clean the primer guns with and will not go away any time soon.
Yes.

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According to the HIBERNIA AUTO RESTORATIONS website paint and thinners page

" you can spray nitro-celluolose lacquer over acrylic lacquer"

" you should NOT spray acrylic lacquer over nitro-cellulose "

"you should only use nitro-cellulose thinner with nitro-cellulose and acrylic thinner with acrylic"

I personally always read and print any instructions and follow them to the letter. That way you do not get into trouble.

I bought their paint black nitro and their thinner, medium and had never sprayed paint before only primer. I turned out 3 deep black show quality front fenders. Why 3 ?? 2 lefts, one with wheel well. I used a mequiars dual action 6 speed polisher with their various foam pads and assorted compounds and polishes after water sanding with 1000 1200 1500 2000 grit water paper.

mike

I have been using Nitrocellulose Lacquer with Acrylic Lacquer thinner for about 30 years with no issues. Nitro works great with Acrylic Lacquer thinner.

Somewhere in my shop I think have an old bulletin from PPG indicating that Acrylic Lacquer thinner can be used both with Nitro and Acrylic Lacquer.

I personally prefer using exactly what the manufacturer states to use. I was looking at pro form paint , their nitro lacquer primer and it said to use their acetone thinner.

personally i found the really cheap lac thinner you use to clean spray guns with is very caustic.

The company recommended thinner for the nitro lacquer paint or primer does not clean spray guns, which kinda tells me its kinder and gentler to use over existing paint and will less likely cause problems with lifting or checking. Maybe ??

I had to send a paint company a sample 2 months ago of paint from a can from 1999. There was residue at the bottom. Medium nitro thinners would not touch it, but the cheap lac thinners got it all softened up and pourable into a little pint can for shipping.

I had a problem where the 1999 black nitro puichase was jet black and the 2010 black nitro was graphite black. I needed to send sprayable samples to prove there was a problem with their 2010 colour.

So never throw out one of those old cans with residue when you end up needing some more paint to do touch ups 31 years after you last painted the car.
mike

Thanks for the feedback guys but I have no trouble getting the Acrylic Lacquer black paint DDL 9300. I live in Florida and with the high humidity here the paint will "blush" or have white blotches. The retarder, (Ditzler DTX1140), prevents blushing. I'm not painting "with" or "over" Nitrocelulose paint....simply acrylic lacquer over acrylic lacquer. I'll check out the Hibernia suggestion. Billu38

It's been aeons since I shot lacquer but in the day retarders were normally not brand specific. I doubt they are even today. Retarder is retarder. You are dead on about lacquer blushing in a high humidity environment. I googled -lacquer thinner retarder- and got over 43K hits, most sellers of retarder.

I would ask to talk to JERRY as he was quite knowledgable about spraying.

As i was doing my nitro painting in the summer months here in Canada and i am real close to lake Ontario , the high humidity here in the summer can be ferocious !!!!!!! I bought one of those dual gauges that has temperature and humidity and placed it in the area i was going to be painting. If the temp and more particularly the humidity was going to exceed 60% i did not paint. I went almost 2 weeks at one point before i could. Was the simple way to avoid having to add anything else to the paint.

mike

While it is important to read and follow all manufacturers instructions, also read bulletins and info. on forums from those who have used it as some of the manufacturers want to sell you only their products. Backwards compatibility is generally the case in some product lines. (when acrylic came out they weren't about to tell shops to trash their stock and shift to the new all at once) I haven't used Lacquer since the 70's however I did use acrylic thiner for all the lacquer paints we had.

p.s.??Obsolete lacquer does not hold up.???

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HUUUUUUM , obsolete lacquer does not hold hold up ???? Well my 1935 chevrolet standard series coupe was painted in ditzler double deep black nitro-cellulose lacquer back in 1979. Using all the correct ditzler primers and solvents. One small area on the upper quarter panel has cracked , other than that , YES it does hold up. !!!

It still has its hand polished finish that you can count your nose hairs , in the reflection when its waxed.

There are still places around like Hibernia Auto Restorations in NJ that still offer complete lacquer services in : paint primers and thinners in nitro and acrylic. Plus you can easily spray it in your garage or driveway without killing yourself if you do not wear the right mask.

mike

If a lacquer paint is applied in several light coats that are permitted to thoroughly dry between coats there will be no cracking for a long time (if ever). An oven or drying lamps or paint booth with heated air also helps tremendously.

If any solvent remains when recoated then cracking is sure to happen relatively quickly. Also light coats that are permitted to dry are much less likely to blush. And there will not be any of those little bubbles show up 1-5 years after the paint job.

The factory Nitrocellulose paint is still on my original 1932 and after 80 years the paint still looks very nice.

The key to long life lacquer paint is to have all the solvent out of the paint so the paint film does not shrink later.

Lacquer is a polymer dissolved in a solvent. It is applied as a solution so the solvent used to dissolve the polymer will eventually leave resulting in shrinking. If the shrinking occurs below the top surface then cracking will occur. Nitrocellulose lacquer is a harder (less flexible) polymer than acrylic lacquer so is prone to more cracking. It is the hardness that permits a more reflective surface with polishing. Nitrocellulose also has a higher softening point temperature so reflowing is much harder to accomplish without damaging something. On the other hand acrylics have a much lower softening temperature so reflowing much easier and less hazardous to other components.

All GM vehicles using acrylic lacquer had the exterior paint reflowed in the factory eliminating the need to buff the paint to a smooth reflective surface. Saved a bunch of money for GM and customers.

I must also address temperature change induced cracking. The paint polymer expands with increasing temperature and contracts with cooling. As long as the temperature change is gradual then the polymer can adjust without cracking. However if the temperature change is large and rapid then the stress can be too great and cracks will form. Initially the cracks will not be seen but eventually will widen enough to be visible. So putting cold water on a hot lacquer paint surface is a NO, NO. Same thing as cold water in an overheated engine, CRACK! Wax coating on the paint will provide some additional protection from temperature change damage as well as UV, Ozone, bug guts, abrasives and bird droppings. Of course moving to San Diego, CA can be an option as they have the less temperature variation than any other place in continental USA. UV is high because of less cloudy days.

End of chemistry lesson for today.

THANKS TEACH, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE LEARNED SOMETHING ELSE NEW TODAY.....ME INCLUDED.

MIKE

My experience with lacquer paints having been a professional refinisher for a number of years is that lacquer does not age well in most cases. It MUST be protected for it to last because it oxidizes much more than enamels. All paints oxidize, that's the color on your rag when you polish. It's true that you can get a sheen in lacquer that you can't get with enamel but that comes with a cost, the cost being high maintenance.

Factory finishes never lasted, not even close to todays finishes and that is why it's obsolete
In all my years of bodywork I have never seen a factory or refinish lacquer job that DIDN'T crack or fade eventually. With UVs and fluctuating temps., lacquer was doomed.
Solvent pop even occurs in todays clearcoat finishes but was expected in most lacquer jobs as the rapid evaporation causes condensation under the film. Use of urethane primer and sealer will help as the moisture reaches all the way to the metal.

Try doing spot repair on your base clear paints and find out your doing the whole hood or the whole quarter or the trunk lid or door. And those $$$$ my friend is in materials and much higher costs .

If you doing a correct restoration, your going to do it with urethanes and base clears........ya that will get you points with the judges.

mike

My 1932, 1968, 1969, 1972 and 1984 all still have the original factory finishes on them. And....these finishes that "never lasted" still look great today and they even look better than some of the newer factory base coat-clear coat jobs that are peeling as we speak!

I have a '51 with factory original paint, also a '68 Corvair, and '70 Caprice. The '51 is cracking but other two are still really nice.

I have painted nearly every paint system in the past 40 years. Spent many years figuring out the cause of the small bubbles, many of them with the paint company reps telling me I didn't know what I was talking about. They told me it was moisture from my air system and other BS. I spent many $$$ insuring that all moisture was removed including passing the air through metal coils cooled by ice/water then multiple molecular sieves and filters.

Finally the paint companies will tell people that it is moisture that condenses on the recently applied paint surface and gets trapped between layers. Can happen with any paint system that has solvent evaporation and is sprayed in high humidity environment. That includes paint booths with moistened floor and walls to control dust.

Are they exposed to the environment or sealed in a garage?
There are always exceptions to any rule as death and taxes are the only things absolute.

I don't know how much it will cost you in points but most who spend a stimulus size price on a restoration would probably sacrifice a few points for a more durable finish that will hold up under most conditions especially if it driven very frequently.
Lacquer blends have the least amount of integrity and deteriorate faster the the rest of the finish. Clear has UV protection and if applied properly will last longer than the vehicle itself.

You can spot repair a black lacquer paint job . Because i had no access at the time to black lac i bought a spray bomb and fixed all the chips on the front of my 35 chev std coupe . When it was finished and polished i could not tell the difference. !! Try doing that with your new paints.

My 2003 chevy S10 extreme extendacab has more little scratches in that clearcoat than i care to look at. This new paint scratches REALLY EASILY. What about all that PEELING PAINT you see on cars that are little older from the 90's . So much for adhesion and durability ???? I cannot buy a spray bomb of the paint and blow it in, tried that , did not work. You have to refinish the whole quarter panel. Now you need to step up to cash register for all the expensive materials. Paint , hardener, mixing cup.

Do not forget your expensive mask so your lungs do not get damaged from this great new stuff. Oh ya you might also need to wear a suit or a remote oxygen supply so you don't get poisined by some of this stuff people are spraying. AND they banned nitro because ????????

Think i will stick with my nitro-cellulose, its much more versatile and easier to use as an amateur.

mike

My 1932 Sedan was used on a ranch for many, many years for hauling milk from the ranch into town. It also performed other ranch duties as well.

My 1968 Pickup is a daily driver and a hauler. It has 250,000 miles and it sits in an open air car port.

Our 1969 Impala was on the road daily for 41 years and it has 400,000 miles.

The 1972 Cheyenne we bought new and, until recently, it had a cab-over camper on board. The truck has been to Nevada, Oregon, California, Washington, Arizona and Canada.

The 1984 Oldsmobile is now our daily driver and we have owned that car since around 1991. It too has been lots of places and it is on the road about six days a week.

All of the above vehicles have been exposed to almost every type of weather that you can think of and they all still have the original paint finishes that look great. As a matter of fact, the paint on our 1972 pickup and on the 1984 Oldsmobile look almost factory fresh! With the exception of the 1932, none of the above vehicles are babied either!