VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION General Discussions Ethanol and old cars

OK guys, you guys hate it and I love it so we agree on that. I wish you had a choice like I do but I can't do anything about that Anyway, I going to put this to bed on my end cause I don't like to argue and it really doesn't do any good anyway. So here is to you have a good day and lets move on and enjoy our old car hobby that we do have in common!

Actually, I consider this an "informative" discussion instead of an argument.

At any rate, here's to you my friend:

And the same to you my friend!!!

A glass of white lightning to you both!

Down here the "civil aviation safety authority" will NOT allow ethanol based fuels in aircraft and the fuel companies dont recommend it for marine or lawn mowers and small engines.
Tony

I found all these conversations very interesting. It's really to bad that no one seems to here or care to what the peoples needs are. Big brother knows what is best for all of us ?

PK has a very valid point. I have another example.

Although this thread is about ethanol is has also been about the governments imposing laws and regulations that hurt us all --- but most especially people who like classic cars.

I am going in another direction briefly, but it is one more example of stupid government tricks. Please note that this post is not about politics because both parties are guilty; it is about stupid decisions that affect car guys.

As I stated earlier we spend a lot of time in a rural area of Ohio. This summer we decided to trade in our SUV on a F150 so we could get enough towing power to pull a 9,000lb trailer. Needless to say this requires a big engine.

Since we were in Ohio we bought one in Ohio. When we tried to register and title it in Washington state, which is our residence, the application was rejected because (unknown to us) Wa had passed a law that all new vehicles had to meet CA emissions standards to be titled. Ca has the most rigid emission laws in the country. (Oregon has a similar law to that of WA- stupid seems to travel north on the I-5).

Federal law does not allow dealers in states that do not require CA standards to order CA compliant trucks that are equipped with special options to do this; so almost all trucks sold in Oh do not meet these standards.

Ohio was more than willing to license and title the truck and more important, collect the sales tax.

We spend the worse part of the winter in AZ. As we drive around Scottsdale we see a lot of cars and trucks with WA plates that were purchased in AZ. In the past when we bought vehicles in AZ we all paid the sales tax in AZ but WA got it back from AZ when we titled the vehicles there.

If all of the WA snowbirds who purchase cars outside WA do not buy ones that are CA compliant, Washington is going to lose millions in sales tax revenues each year. All this loss just to keep some environmental wackos happy so politicians can get their votes. There are only a couple of counties in Wa that even do emissions testing, and they are all around Seattle.

Wa is one of the states in financial trouble, so if they lose this sales tax revenue they will raise other taxes to make it up.

Now, for me this was good. Ohio has a 6% sales tax rate while Wa has a 9.5% tax rate. So, we saved over $500 in sales taxes. Go figure!!!!!!

To bring this back to old cars, using the same logic as requiring CA emissions standards, many counties and states are moving towards requiring ALL cars to meet emissions standards in an effort to drive older cars off the roads. That is us guys. We are once again following the Europe example, and that is not good.

Point made. Now let's get back to the use of corn liquor as gasoline.

For more information and a video on damage done to old cars by Ethanol go here:

http://www.historicvehicle.org/Late...&utm_campaign=Hagerty%20News-October

Very interesting but in 12 years I have not had any problems with 10% ethanol in my 52, So am I just lucky, or what.

YEP ! You are...

glyn, I guess you and I are both lucky, maybe we should play the lottery!

The same here. We have had ethanol in this part of Wisconsin for over 15 years. I have used gas with ethanol while visiting many states and never and a problem.

Ditto here: Use it in my chaninsaw, lawnmower, snomobile, cars, tractors, ect for many, many years with no problems other than the usual.



With a wood pile like this you know my chainsaw was used alot. However, I'm now going to the high octain recommended for small engins but my daily drivers and tractors will get 10% ethanol.

Dr.David,

Just a couple of comments:

First, I don't remember if I mentioned this before but NC does not require a state inspection on vehicles over 35 years old. How about other states? Is there an emissions/inspection exemption for certain age cars?

Second, my son just bought a 2011 Denali. It is rated "E" something. My understanding is that it will run on the 85 octane gasoline/fuel/ethanol just fine. That 85 rated fuel is heavy on the ethanol side, I think. What in the world is going on here? I don't have a clue.
Charlie

BTW: If something is not spelled out in the constitution then it is left up to the individual states to regulate. The states sure do play around with the issue of auto taxes and emissions, etc, don't they?

One more reason to move South to North Carolina, and to TEXAS! we are people friendly! We have good weather, maybe this year we are extra dry, but God can change that...
also TEXAS does not require antique tagged cars to have a state inspection...

Charlie:

I just bought a new F150 (see above) that takes so-called FlexFuel which means it has been specially set up to take gasoline with up to 15% ethanol without damaging the engine as ethanol would normally do. To date I have not put this stuff into my truck.

These redesigned engines are mgf to withstand the damage that ethanol does to regular/older engines.

I understand the two government-run car companies and Ford will produce 50% of their cars to be capable of using 85% gas by 2012.

It used to cost the consumer thousands of dollars extra for these vehicles but it is reported that it now only costs about $150 per car.

The original benefit was that flex-fuel would be a lot cheaper to consumers but as the law of supply and demand has driven up the price of corn so much due to its use to make ethanol, the spread is not as promised. In fact, much of the savings over regular fuel is due to massive government payments to oil companies to produce this fuel. So, while you may save a little at the pump it increases taxes and government debt.

As a free-market type I support the addition of ethanol to the gasoline available --- BUT ---- it should be a choice. If you want to put this stuff in your car or truck --- fine. But, the politicians should not force you to do so they can buy votes from corn farmers.

Dr David and Charlie,
I believe E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. Check it out, I think this is correct. I too have a flex fuel truck (Chevy), it runs the same on E10 and E85 but the E85 cuts the mileage 2 to 3 mpg. AS far as buying farmers votes, there aren't enough of us left to make much difference. lol

BTW 1- flex fuel refers to the flexibility of the vehicle to burn anything from regular gas to E85.
BTW 2- I also support having a choice.

Ed.

Of course you are right about E85. I stated it backwards. E85 can contain up to 85% ethanol in the summer and 75% in the winter.

My owner's manual states for FlexFuel vehicles: "Ethanol is more chemically active than gasoline. It corrodes some metals and causes some plastic and rubber components to swell, break down, or become brittle and crack, especially when mixed with gasoline. Special materials and procedures have been developed for flexible fuel vehicles and the dispensers used by ethanol fuel providers."

I think this proves the point many have been making on this forum about this stuff and its impact on older cars.

Sorry, Ed but it is to buy votes. While the number of family farmers is few, the influence of the large corporate farms is huge; and the impact on the economy of corn states is great.

I thought you drove a 99 Jeep.

Keep on truckin!!

HA Ha, yep 99 Jeep and 08 pickup. Love that old Jeep but it has never had anything but E10 in it so it must be all corroded up by now!

I suppose one of these days I should change the fuel filter and maybe even the spark plugs, It has had a new fan belt, tires, and a battery.......... I think the ethanol ate the fan belt!

Ed:

I knew some guys who smoked since high school and up until they found out they had lung cancer, they claimed smoking never did them any harm.

Keep on truckin!!!!!!!

I get you point but isn't that kind of like comparing apples to oranges?

Sounds like a flex fuel vehicle which can run on either 10 or 85% alcohol. Our state motor pool had a number of flex fuel cars, the out com eof that was more service and performance problems and a drop in mileage per gallon. As I understand they now reccomend that no 85% fuel be used in the cars.

Gene, I have visisted with several club members on the gas/alcohol problem and not one has had problems once the system has been updated to alcohol resistant parts. I have a good friend who has experienced vapor lock in his 28 LaSalle with an up draft carb parked on top of the center of the engine, I have had a limited problem with the 52 acting up when the engine is very warm (such as waiting to cross into or out of Canada) The only membe rwith a problem was a member with a 31 Chevrolet coupe in which he installed an NOS fuel pump(which due to age should have been rebuilt anyway) I think he got about 2 or 3 months of limited running before it died.

Uncle Ed:

Comparing smoking to ethanol is not called "apples and oranges," it is called a metaphor.

Your experiences aside, I am going to stick with the warnings from car, truck, ATV, and motorhome mfs who clearly state that unless you modify engines (as glyn details above) or buy a vehicle with a modified engine to fight the harmful effects of ethanol(which is corn liquor/alcohol)this stuff can hurt your engine.

But if you and others like the stuff use it; and I will continue to use it only when our government forces me to --- even in my FlexFuel truck. Case closed.

Ed, Do you happen to be a farmer there in Iowa, and produce corn ?