VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1912-1928 Breaking down a wheel

Gentlemen, I find myself requiring your help again. Inspired by Grants thread,about sanding Montys wood spokes,I decided my old girl could use the same treatment. However after removing the wheels from her,I decided to seperate the spokes from the rims and hubs, so I could paint the rims after cleaning the spokes. The rears were no problem, but the fronts will not seperate from the hubs, I've removed the 6 bolts but no matter what I try I cant get them to come apart.What am I doing wrong ?

The outside spoke retaining plate is probably held by rust or paint onto the hub. It is a fairly close fit on the hub but should come off with a bit of persuasion. Once the hub bolts are removed nothing else is holding the hub together. When you do get the plate off, the spoke ends may well be held onto the hub by rust, and might need to be pressed off - should not be as tight as that though.

However, if the spokes are tight and in good condition, I strongly suggest you don't break the wheel down - once they have been disturbed they are likely to be less tight when re-assembled. They were originally assembled in a press and the faces for the hub machined after assembly, I believe, and it is unlikely after 80 years that there has been no permanent compression of the wood fibres.

Two types of spokes were fitted to the 26/27 type wheels. The more common type on cars sold here has a compound angle on the hub end of the spokes, with the main angle 30 degrees and a cross angle of 10 degrees. On the other type, there is no 10 degree cross angle.

The first type can be identified easily because, when looking at the spoke ends, alternate spoke ends will show a different width. These can be dis-assembled by tapping down a couple of the spokes showing their narrow side to release the compression between the the hub end of the spoke and the felloe which holds the spokes together and allows the first spoke to be worked out of the wheel. After one is removed the others come out easily.

The wheels which have only a 30 degree angle with no cross angle are difficult to dismantle or assemble without damaging the spokes. If you have this type I personally would not even consider dismantling them unless the spokes were going to be replaced - only my opinion though - others may have done this sucessfully.

Frank.

I believe on a good wheel the spokes are supposed to be in there really tight. Some spokes are made with opposing angles built into them so that tightening the bolts presses the spokes tightly together. Some are built square and were pressed in with a press. I would leave the spokes in the wheel and clean them up and finish them as best you can. If you take them apart you'll probably never get them together as tight and as true as they are right now. You'll have to mask the finished spokes to paint the rims. My opinion and I've built one set from scratch and cleaned up and refinished another really solid set without taking them apart.

Hi All,

I agree, the tighter the spokes the better, but as Grant is doing with Monty, may I suggest if you have the brake drums off try a USA product called Chair Loc. The F*** model T guys put me onto it. It swells up the grain and fills the void it creates. I had loose wheels for over 20 years. With a series of actions, including brushing on liberal coats of chair loc, my wheels are as tight as a fishes bum. A good wooden spoke wheel should almost have a metalic sound when you tap each spoke. A dull thud means trouble, a loose spoke. If you dont want to remove the hub, just tap eack spoke in turn with the drum removed, so as to open a slight gap between the surface of the spoke and the back of the hub, enough to get plenty of chair loc into the area. If you check this link to my blog, you can see what I did to my wheels. Over 2000 miles later, and high speed driving up to 50 mph, still as tight as that same fishers bum.

http://my28chev.blogspot.com/2011/06/2010-april-rear-wheels-fixed-for-good.html

Cheers

Ray

Gidday Fellas,

Here ya go, a couple of photos of my timber spokes without the brake drums and also hit away from the hub, click on the link..

http://montythe1928chevrolet.blogspot.com/2011/09/resto-timber-spoke-wheels-getting.html

You know what brother,

We may make a Chev mechanic/restorer out of you yet. You just need to curse and swear a lot more, swing a hammer like its a pencil, and belch and fart a lot more.

In that case you just need to work of the swearing and hammer, everything else is on track.



Cheers

Ray

Thanks for all your help and advice guys.

Gidday Dan,

here ya go mate, I sanded the centre's of my timber wheels today, I was happy when finish how they looked

http://montythe1928chevrolet.blogspot.com/2011/09/resto-timber-spoke-wheels-getting_17.html

Best of luck with yours..........

I'm curious as to how you plan to use Chair Loc. This product is designed to tighten joints in chairs and other furniture but you have to take the joints apart to use it. I would think it would be useful if you had the spokes apart and put the product between the spokes as you assemble them since it swells the wood fibres to make a tighter joint. I don't think it's going to do much good just brushing it on on the outside since it isn't going to penetrate the wood to any degree. Just my thoughts.

Hi Arrend,

I must disagree with your logic.

I applied chair loc to my wheels that were in a similar state of assembly as Grants. And it did soak in, and it did make the joint tighter.I was doubtful before I used the product but soon changed my opinion. If nothing else it is a further process to ensure the wheel is tight while you have it apart.
Nothing wrong with a bit of insurance is there??

All comments are welcome, but as you have read the earlier comments in this thread about chair loc,you would be seeing positive comments about the product as I did from the Model T guys.

If you want to make an opinion based on what you think as opposed to your actual wheel experience then pardon me if I judge it accordingly

Regards

Ray

Gidday Arend,

I understand where you are coming from mate, but I want to brush it into the small borer holes that I have in my wheels and which have also been treated by myself before I putty them up, the joins on the wheels are in bloody good condition but I want to give the spokes a good brushing with the "Chair-Loc".
1928isgreat (Ray) used it on his spokes and could not believe how tight they became and what a good job was achieved with the product so while I am going to this much trouble with the timber wheels, another few dollars sprent on them can only be a good thing..
BTW I want to use and drive this car alot when it is on the road again, I plan to do many decent trips in the old thing so I figure the wheels need to be pretty bloody good and tight.

Hi Ray,
I'm not looking for a fight here but was curious as to how the product was being used on spoked wheels. I've made my own set of wheels from scratch so I know Chevy spoked wheels and I'm also familiar with Chair-Loc. It seems to me that to be most effective you'd have to get the product right into the joints and not just on the surface. In other words, you want the joint tight in the middle inside as well as just on the outside so that they will stay tight for many years. I'm not suggesting that the Chair-loc didn't tighten up your wheels. I'm sure they are improved.

However, note the product instructions: "If joint does not come apart, apply Chair-Loc at joint and wiggle to work Chair-Loc deep into joint, or drill a small hole beside the rung into bottom of joint and apply Chair-Loc deep in the hole. For maximum penetration, use syringe injector with medium diameter tip."

Hi Arend,

Your comments are noted, and you have my respect as a person who has made his own wheels. I just wish there were more Aussies able to do the same, me inclusive, but I think you have a lot more guys in the States that are very good wood turners. I would have killed for such a skill 30 years ago.

When I applied chair loc to my wheels I found that a heavy coating on both sides combined with taping the spokes back into the hub gave me pretty good penetration, as I knocked one 75% of the way out to check.

Maybe the message from this for Grant is that to be 100% sure of a good coat on the side of the spokes, as he is taping the spokes back into place on the hub, he applies chair loc to the step between each spoke.

And yes, I also dont want to start a "blue" about the subject, as I have found your numerous postings in the past very helpful.

Regards

Ray

Ok,Ray, I think we're on the same page here. You're getting the Chair-Loc between the spokes where they join. That was my point exactly. BTW, I'm from Canada!

Grant and others, if you have borer damage I strongly suggest a re think on the spokes. For the non carpenters out there they are a tiny little beetles the size of a pin head that burrow into timber and lay their eggs, which in turn hatch and bore there way thru the timber to emerge as an adult some time later. OK Firstly if it is only a dozen holes or so will probably be ok but with borers like termites the bulk of the damage 80% is under the surface and hard to detect. Secondly don't assume that it is old damage borers will come back to a piece of timber and have another go. To be certain they have ceased, soak any affected timber in fly spray, yes house hold fly spray, then when dried after a couple of days take the timber in question and over a clean white surface tap it with a mallet if no more than a little saw dust comes out and maybe a few tiny black specks( the dead borers ) then you have stopped the little blighters. lastly not a fool proof method but a good guide tap the timer with a mallet not steel and if you dont get a dead thud sound the timber should be nice and tight and not eaten out too much, RAYCYCLED