VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1937-1945 Still hard starting

Once again, took the wife to lunch. The 37 master deluxe started a little hard after lunch. Went to the gas station to put gas in for Flint. After fill up she would not start. Used starting fluid and it still would not start so it does not seem to be a fuel problem. After sitting for forty-five minutes it started and came home. Obviously I can't wait forty-five minutes to start every time we stop on tour. The question: Is it possible that the coil is getting too hot and has to cool down (it's been converted to 12 volt so it looks like any 50's to 60's coil). The heat riser is now positioned so that the front is horizontal and as far toward the left fender as it will go.

Was the engine rebuilt recently? The connecting rods could be tight, and with normal engine heat they are expanding. To get them back to their normal size it takes about 45 minutes for the engine to cool? This is a problem I am also dealing with since I filed my rod caps down because I thought they were too loose. Now I have reshimmed them, so I should be over my problem with hot engine starts, but I am also dealing with a badly leaking rear seal. I'll be in Flint next week at the swap meet, maybe I will see you there? Mike

Monte,
Check the following:

a. Points. Do you have a good gap (I forgot the measurement) with no pitting on the mating surfaces.

b. Condenser.

c. Is it turning over well or is is slowly turning? Dragging starter when it's hot?

d. Good compression.

e. Good timing?

f. Good valve clearances?

g. Good carburetor?

h. New plugs? (go for a set)

If the answer to the above is favorable then the only it can be is that its flooding. In that case, when it stalls as described, don't give it any gas by the accelerator. Mash the accelerator to the floor and make sure the chock is all the way in. Should start up after a few revolutions.

Good luck,
Charlie

Sounds like a hot carburetor, percolation issue to me. The weight on the heat riser should be rotated as far counter clock wise as it will go to direct heat away from the carb. Alcohol in the gas will exacerbate the issue.

So you didn't say that it was turning over too slowly, correct. I would be thinking about the heat issue. I would sit for a minute or too with the gas down to the floor and then without moving it, try to start it.

Turns over good and turns over and turns over,just won't start. To be more clear, if you are looking at the engine from the front of the car, does the heat riser need to be rotated all the way to the left to be open? That was the position it was in when I first experienced the problem, and I rotated it all of the way to the right-looking at it from the front. It is still doing it after a short drive in the hot weather. Points are good and gapped right, plugs wires and spark plugs are good and when it does run it runs very well. Just went through the carb and got everything properly adjusted there, I had a float problem that has been corrected. The only thing yoy can't look at and tell is the condensor and the coil. Speaking of which, will any 12 volt coil with the correct connections work?

All the way clockwise looking from the front is the "heat on" position. All the way ccw is the "heat off" position. It sounds like you're boiling the fuel out of the bowl which then settles in the intake runners and when you try to restart it's like starting a hot engine with the choke on. Too much fuel, not enough air. Your starter fluid would be no help because it just adds more fuel. Try this: next time you're out for a drive and shut the engine off hot. Immediately try a restart. It it fires right back up it's definitely a percolation problem. It restarts immediately because the fuel has not yet boiled out of the float bowl. My '38 acts similarly. If I shut it off hot and restart within 3-4 minutes it fires right back up. If it sets much longer a restart is more of a challenge. Putting the heat riser in the heat off position will help some.

Had a very simliar problem on a Chev II 283 2 bbl. The engine off for more than a few minutes and it would not start. Mechanic suggested holding the throttle wide open when I start it in case it was flooded. He was right, it took a few turns but started up with black smoke. I no longer had to wait for it to cool down. A carb rebuild showed gas was leaking into the intake when I turned it off hot.
Mike

Chev's of the 40"s sells an insulator that sits on top of the manifold and helps with boiling gas. I have one on my 41 and it stopped my problems with boiling gas. If you try one make sure you do not dent the hood with the added height (the insulator is about 1/2" to 3/4" thick and made out of Bakelite). Please post your final solution once you solve your problem. Thanks, Mike

P.S. I see you are from Michigan,whereabouts? I am from Midland

Steve:
I'll latch onto the heat riser and turn it back where it was before this started. You are right. If I shut it off and restart right away, no problem. If it sets for five or ten minutes, then it won't restart for forty five minutes. Have to find a way to cool it down. Like I said, I can't wait forty five minutes every time we stop on a tour.

One additional tip. When you do restart hot don't press on the gas pedal, that just adds more fuel to the fuel rich problem. It's a bit of an awkward move but stepping on the starter pedal with the tip of my toe while not stepping on the gas pedal helps in starting my '38 hot.

Tiny....On your 38 you cant help but feed it gas when you start the car anytime. When you step on the starter the starter linkage automatically pumps the gas linkage a little bit (opens the throttle 1/4 of the way)...unless you altered your starter linkage to prevent that....ED

I've been told that is the case and while I haven't checked it out to verify that, pushing it part way is better than pushing it all the way to the floor and getting a full charge from the accelerator pump. It helped resolve my hot start problem.

While you do get an initial squirt of gas when you push the pedal down, you then get a lot of air with little to no gas. It WILL help start a flooded engine. If you have to let the starter rest for a while to try again, don't let up on the gas pedal, so next time you don't get the initial squirt.

On our '40 the amount that the throttle opens when pushing the starter button is adjustable. Don

Used starting fluid and it still would not start so it does not seem to be a fuel problem.

i would look at the coil - points - condensor & is your wireing in good order ? if it did not pop w / starting fluid , gotta be electrical .

Was driving a long distance on the german no speed limits Autobahn last week and I went off to meet somebody in a village aside, and after 10 minutes rest I could start but after a short way the engine shut down and I could not restart. After one hour on fast Autobahn the engine had so much stored heat (and it was an awful hot sunny day too) that after leaving the car to meet the friends the temp gauge went to maximum position. I asked my friends for a bottle of cold water, did cool down the fuel pump and carb. and could start and leave without any problem. Just boiling gas. Should add a bottle of water to my emergenzy box in the trunk I think.
Maybe you had a similar problem.

Stefangermany

Have you checked the float level in the carburater? I still think the engine is being flooded. It doesn't take much to do it. Gas to air ratio is critical in a gas engine.
Charlie

There is a very simple fix to this problem...Stop taking your Wife to lunch.....ED

Thanks for all of the feedback guy's. I think I'll let my wife reply to Ed's message shortly. It happened to me a couple of times last week in Flint and for those who couldn't make it, it was HOT. On the way home I had problems starting after an hour stop over (buying my wife lunch again, Ed). When I couldn't get it started this time, as it was a sunny day, I took the air cleaner off and while Pam tried to start it, I looked into the carburetor. Gas was dripping from the feed tube in the center of the venturi. It now appears to be a flooding problem. Ordering a kit and will do a complete rebuild of the carb again.
Thanks again for all of the advice.
GM

I've been following most of this due to my 38 not starting after getting hot. One thing I am courious about is it starts with a push and pop the clutch, makes me think more toward the coil than flooding or vapor lock. I also think I may have the heat riser spring on backward. Should the spring hold the exhaust valve closed or open?

Closed when cold. But they usually stick in the open (hot) position anyway so when that happens you just have to live with cold warm-ups which take a little longer.
Charlie

In another thread there has been A "insulator" between the carb and manifold, have you checked this?
Tony

Monte3.....If you do decide to rebuild the carb take a good look at the float...This was a problem I had and it drove me nutter than I was already.....Shake the float and listen if there is any gas in it....If you are not sure boil a pot of water on the stove (mild boil & keep float away from the flame,if gas fire) drop the float in the hot water...If the float is leaking it will shoot out a stream of bubbles from the leak, from the hot water heating the air trapped in the float....Mine had a very tiny pin hole that I could not even see with a magnifying glass that was causing my car to run rich..I repaired it with a little JB weld and tested it back in the hot water again...No more problems...GOOD LUCK....ED

BTW.....Tell your wife Bon Appetite.

Good thinking and advice, Ed. (Dang! That hurt!)
Charlie