VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1929-1932 Pictures: help with rear seal placement

Hello everyone,

I finally was able to tear into the rear of my '31 to replace the inner and outer seal. Where do the inner and outer seal go? I have pictures of the parts here. Could someone show me where to they go.

Also, while I have this all apart, could I get some suggestions on things to do to make sure everything is in good proper order.













Thanks,
Brandon

Brandon,
You will have to remove the axle shaft to install the inner bearing seal. It is shown on page 80 of the 1931 repair manual. It is called the axle shaft bearing packing and retainer on that page. The outer bearing axle seal is fitted into the outer retainer with all the bolt holes in it after removing the original felt. You will have to remove a crimped part on the seal retainer.Instructions would have been included with the seals from the Fillingstation.

That is one sweet looking 31 coach!!

If you don't have a repair manual, you might want to get one.

Thanks. I'm very thankful for my car but I do have to say that this picture makes it look much nicer than it really is.

I do have a repair manual. I've read it but some things are still a bit hard for me to figure out with this being the first time for me. Thanks for the translation. I had looked at that page and couldn't figure out which part listed was the inner bearing. Will I have to remove the bearings to take the inner seal out or will it slip off the end of the axle? When I go to put the axle back in do I simply just slide it back in and make sure the splines are lined up? When I put it back together, besides packing the bearings, should I put grease in there or just use the grease cup to fill it back up? I assume regular bearing grease will work fine for this part. I have 600W gear oil from the filling station to go back in the tranny and rear end when I'm all done.
As was suggested, after I get the inner seal out I'm going to check to see if there are worn groves on the axle. If there is no wear I'll replace the rear seal. I think I can pick up where I got lost on the included directions from there. I may have a couple more questions just to make sure I grind off the correct surfaces and to make sure I have the right bearings. I'm using part #'s RW-41 and RW-42 for this part of the project. If I ordered them correct these are the original style gaskets that are not completely sealed and it should function as originally intended when I'm done.

Thanks,
Brandon

Brandon,
The whole axle assembly will need to be removed including the bearing. The bearing is retained with a nut and a locking tab , and is installed from the inner end of the axle, sliding it to the outer end.Then nut and retainer and bearing come with the axle.
You will need to use a puller to pull the inner seal out of the diff housing without damaging it and then reuse the retainer when fitted with the new seal.
You will need to thoroughly clean your bearings and inspect them for roughness and wear.

I bought new sealed bearings for my project, and do not need to regrease them at all. I am sure that high temperature wheel bearing grease would be the most suitable.

Sorry Jack39, I see I asked a question you had already answered about which way to remove the seal and bearing and although I read it when I went back it didn't register.

What is the best way to remove the seal if I do not have a spanner wrench? I've searched every term I can think of and all over the internet and can't find an answer to this. I figured this would have come up many times.

Thanks,
Brandon

Brandon, To remove the inner seal you would need to make a puller out of a piece of about 1/4" steel plate that will fit over the end of the housing. Drill a 3/8' hole in it, cut a 3/8 bolt down and weld a piece of steel on the end with a radius on it at 90 degrees. Place the bolt with the welded end inside the seal so that it is pulling on the edge closest to the housing, and then use small turns on the nut to pull the old seal out. Move the bolt around the seal to pull it out evenly.
Or this commercial bearing puller
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Rear...Automotive_Tools&hash=item439e96e99a

Another option is carefully with a slide hammer with a 90 degree attachment on the end.

If you had the differential centre out of the axle housing you could use a piece of cut down broom stick and light taps of the hammer would drive the seal out.

Are you talking about a "C" spanner which is used on the bearing retainer nuts? You will only need one to remove the bearing retainer nuts if you are going to take the bearings off the axles. The inner seals stay inside the axle housing after the axle and bearing assembly is removed.

I would suggest since you have it apart that you replace the axle bearings with double sealed bearings. It just helps that much more to keep the brakes clean.

Ok, I see what was confusing me. I thought the bearing nut was the seal and it had accidentally come out when I pulled the axle out. I cleaned out the axle housing and realized that what I thought was just part of the axle was actually the retainer ring and seal.
Here are some pictures of before I cleaned it and then after.

If I am going to repack my bearings I will have to remove them from the axle and then replace them. What are the advantages and disadvantages of having double sealed bearings? For example, when I ordered my rear seals I decided to go with the original style because the fully rubber seals would mean I may have to drill a vent hole in my differential housing. I suppose if I had double sealed bearings I would no longer have to use the grease cups on the rear axles, but do double sealed bearings last as long if I'm not able to continue to add grease to them?







This is what it was like before I cleaned it up, so I thought this was all one piece and why I didn't think there was a bearing in there.

I have been running with Double Sealed Bearings since 1965 and haven't had a problem to this day. I drove my car everywhere until about 1980 when I built a trailer for long distance travel.

My parts man said that the double sealed bearings will only last about 1/2 as long as the open bearings or about 50,000 miles. If I am going to get 50K, I better get busy and start driving.

You not only no longer will be using those grease cups with the double sealed bearings, but you also will be eliminating the inner seal retainer cup and seal.
I am using double sealed bearings because am afraid if the inner seal, where it rides on axle shaft, leaves a wear pattern, the new seal may not compensate for the wear and thence you will have the grease leaking past again.
My original outer felt seals were in good shape, so am reusing them.
After bending up the bearing retainer clip, I just took a hammer and blunt punch to loosen those retainers. They are not on very tight. The bearings came off with a light tap of shaft on floor. Be careful not to damage the splined end when tapping on floor. The new bearings did need to be pressed on.
The replacement double sealed bearings carry the name and number of NSK6307VVC3 which I purchased locally. (Made in USA)!!!! Filling Station also carries bearings in stock. The original bearings were New Departure ENDEE 1307. Make sure that the drip holes in brake drums are clear and open also before reinstalling. They are supposed to take the leak out and down onto wheels instead of onto brake linings.
As Ray stated, will take quite awhile to put 50,000 miles on car. For me, that is going to be a long time after I depart this cruel world.

Jim.

What store did you find your double sealed bearings? I googled the part number but didn't find any suppliers.

I'm sorry if these questions seem kind of stupid, but I want to make sure I completely understand. If I order double sealed bearings, then I can remove and no longer use the parts shown in this picture?



As stated, even with shorter longevity that seems to be the easier choice because I won't have to worry about finding a way to get the inner seal out without damaging it. I can just pop it out.

Would using a double sealed bearing also mean getting rid of the bearing nut (pictured below)?

You can get the double sealed bearings at your local bearing supply. And, yes, you will still need the retaining nut to hold the bearing in place.

As well as the retaining nut you must also use the special nut retainer with the tab that is bent into the nut as a positive nut locking device.

Brandon.
The new seals which you have purchased are not original seals. 1931 original seals were made of felt, and your new ones are a neoprene lip seal and will seal a lot better than the original felt. If you decide to replace your bearings with sealed bearings aswell, i would still install the inner and outer seals with the sealed bearings. The reason i would install the inner seal is that the inner seal is meant to seal the differential oil into the diff housing. Oil will still leak past the bearing where it sits into the diff housing as only the bearing races are sealed and the bearing does not make an oil tight seal on its own. Originally there was two seals so that the bearing is kept in bearing grease and the differential is kept in its oil lubricant. the two lubricants were kept apart by the inner seal. If the differential then needs a breather i would put a breather in. There has been talk about the breather being needed here before , and simply drilling a hole in a diff cover bolt and fitting a tube may be all that is needed. 1939 models and others had a breather half way up the torque tube.

Two seals will make sure that the oil stays in the differential and away from the bearing and also stop it seeping from the joint between the axle housing tube and the brake flange mounting on the axle tube.
The sealed bearings are also available from the www.fillingstation.com

Since the axle bearings are a slight press fit, if you put a fine coat of silicone around the bearing surfaces when they are installed then you should have no oil leaks around the bearings.

Maybee im talking out of ignorance...i dont think i am...but if you go with DIFFERENT, SEALED bearings...make sure it is of the highest quality available. PLEASE dont run anything that is made in Japan or china or indonesia or india. Some things you can help i know...but it's better to go QUALITY now...then be driving and a bearing fails do to poor factory assembly. Which is precisely why i still run the original bearings which would likely be New Departure. Stopping and greasing once in a while is better to me than anything modernised that has an increased potential to fail becouse of poor materials and poor assembly of materials this day and age.

I agree completely. I don't like, nor do I trust, using anything made overseas that uses steel.

Also, I just realized I didn't order a gasket for the outer seal retainer. The gasket that was supposed to be there was essentially non existent so I'm not exactly sure between which of the 3 pieces it goes. Rather than wait another week and pay a bunch for shipping could I just use RTV gasket material in place of this gasket, especially since because of the double sealed bearings I'm going to use, that gasket doesn't seem as though it will any longer serve its purpose.
Once again, I included a picture to make sure I'm calling everything by it's right name.



Thanks,
Brandon

NSK6307VVC3 recommended above is a Japanese bearing and as good or better quality than made here. We use industrial NSK bearings on our equipment at work all the time with excellent results. Be careful throwing out feel good generalizations that all things made over seas are of poor quality because it just isn't so. The bearings made today for wheel bearings are tapered roller bearings far superior to those ball bearings made back in the day by New Departure. In there day they were the thing, but now that just isn't so. That said I am not going to go change the bearings on my '30 because the open ball bearings are serving the purpose. Now if they fail I wouldn't be apposed to changing to a double sealed bearing. I have a Corolla with 464,000 miles on it that I have never changed a bearing on. I think that those bearings were made in Japan.

Now as to using RTV for a gasket, I will let Ray take that one on.

The gasket is originally installed underneith the axle shaft bearing retainer. "outer seal retainer" It is called the axle shaft bearing retainer gasket , page 80 of the 1931 repair manual. The retainer stops your axle from falling out.

If it helps anyone, I just put in both the inner and outer "new style" axle seals, in addition to my two-year-old double sealed bearings. The reason? Differential oil was leaking out through the right double sealed bearing, through both bearing "seals", and threatening my brakes again. I have the rear end all apart now, putting in my new 3.50 Larry Jackson gears, and am putting all new everything from the u-joint back, so my torque tube will seal better now, keep the transmission oil more toward the front where it belongs. But I did watch carefully my differential oil level, and the right side bearing still leaked through. Maybe the right side because of the typical crown in the road???

So, wanting to keep my brakes dry (they stop a lot better that way), I put in all the seals. The brakes were an oily mess before I put in those double sealed bearings. It's great to look in there a few years later and see them all dry and just like the day you put it together.

The problem with longevity, if there is one, on sealed bearings, is that they don't put much grease in them. It's not hard to just pop out the seal and pack in a bunch more grease. Makes you feel better.

46 Panel,
Were you using the recommended oil for both your gearbox and differential? 600W (160W modern viscosity)is recommemded for both. A lower viscosity oil may have been the problem after you replaced the seals and bearings.
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/uploads/M533LABEL4INCH-5386.pdf

There IS quality in SOME things overseas...one of my points are that there is so much OF poor quality out there though...you dont know which is which, and inless specified, for all you know, you may be buying literal crap. Thats why i always caution people. Expecially about bearings to be used in critical area's.

I wish i knew of a German bearing maker. For the most part, you KNOW there is quality there.

The rear axle bearing i bought from the filling station are made in Turkey. Seals were made in the USA