VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1912-1928 Do I really have a 1923 Sedan

The experts have me worried now that my 1923 Superior sedan has got some wrong parts on it, in particular the Stewart vacuum system. A recent post advised that I should have instead a G&G type system. The tank installed on the car is a Stewart model 189A. In addition my dash board set up looks like a 1924 with the choke button mounted on the dash to the left of the steering column. My serial number starting with 6B falls in the production range of Jan through Oct 1923. My engine block is stamped with H3P6 which was apparently from a foundry in Port Huron. So to you expert historians out there, do you think I have the wrong tank? It sure looks factory installed. Do I have some kind of Canadian hybrid?

Thanks for any information you have on this. I'll probably be back on the forum with more questions about diagnosing the just arisen problem where the tank has stopped pulling fuel from the tank ( after working fine since I got the car in April).

I really appreciate the patience shown to us newbies.

Can't help on the authentication of the car.

May be able to help with the vacuum tank. My "Combined Parts List" effective January 1, 1923 shows on page 92-93 a Stewart vacuum tank for "(All Closed Cars)". The G&G was used on "Superior Touring and Roadster". Different gas lines are shown and listed on the next two pages.

If the vacuum tank was working and suddenly stops pulling gas from the fuel tank, the most likely problem is that the brass insert on the vacuum valve has loosened from the die-cast top. But before checking that remove the fuel line and blow on the line to see if air bubbles enter the fuel tank. Once you are sure that noting is blocking the line from the tank then attack the vacuum tank. Remove the lines, screws from the cover and carefully remove the cover. Try to pull straight up. Once removed check the float for cracks, check to see if the springs are still on the "rocker" mechanism, that the two valves (one for vacuum and the other is a vent) are properly working. That is the brass seats are in place and when the float is raised the vacuum valve shuts off and the vent valve opens. The opposite happens when the float is lowered. If that is all okay then remove the inside container and check the flapper valve. It must seal for the pump to work and there can't be any holes in the inner container. If all that is okay the tank should work. When putting it all back together make sure that the cork seal at the top seals the inner container to the outer and top seals both. Any air leaks or valves that don't work and the tank will not pull gas from the tank.

Chipper,

Thanks for the advice. I think I know what I will be doing after work today. Am I going to need new gasket material to get a decent seal on the cap?

First remember that new model years didn't necessarily land on a calendar year. Second since these cars were made in factory's all over the place and no parts were wasted and sometimes mixed and matched at the end and beginning of production runs, its possible to have the Stewart on a 23. Finally, unless you are really wanting it to be a "must be authenticate in every way" show car. Disconnect the vacuum tank and put in a low pressure 6 volt electric fuel pump under the chassis. Those of us who drive and tour our cars have done this because those vacuum tanks can be a problem and unreliable on the open road. Leave it there for looks, and plug the lines. Of course you must make sure your battery stays up because there is no starting the car with the hand crank if your fuel pump isn't working. Good Luck Brett

I have taken 6v electric pumps off several 4 cylinder Chevys. They are frequently more trouble than they are worth. It is mainly because of the pressure regulator and inconsistent flow at low outlet pressure. I have run vacuum tanks on six different 4 cylinder Chevys and a bunch of friends also run them. They are mostly trouble free and if you don't drive like an idiot (by keeping the foot to the floor climbing grades) they don't run out of gas even on really long grades.

I guess it just depends on what your individual experiences have been. If you have a good condition vacuum tank maybe. I went though two and they were nothing but trouble. It was after talking to some guys on the 4 cylinder tour that I changed over to the electric pump. I haven't experienced the trouble you mentioned yet anyway although I could see how it might happen. However they make pumps now specifically for low pressure so I would hope they worked ok. I can only say I have had no trouble since going with the electric and had constant issues with the vacuum tanks. Maybe the issue is here in Colorado, keeping your foot on to the floor climbing long grades is the norm and not the exception. Signing off, all have fun Brett

Brett,

I think I'm going to try to sort out the vacuum tank issue first. Like I said in my previous post, the car was running great with no fuel starvation problems until about a week ago. However, if it does not sort itself out do you have an electric pump brand and type that you have used that you could pass on? In other posts on this issue the main criticism of electric pumps have had to do with pressure issues. I'd also be curious how you wired and plumbed in the pump as well.

I think you are doing the right thing. Meaning I beleive you should alway's go with the original parts and mechanicals first. After all that's why we love this hobby and these cars so much. I only went this way after several attempts. Part of the issue is here in Colorado where the air is thin and grades are tough, on a hot day, you get vapor lock and other issues with vacuum tanks. I don't remember the brand of pump we used, I'll have to get under the car and look. But we wired it to the supply side of the coil, putting an inline fuse between coil and pump. When you turn on the switch, the pump will turn on (and off when you turn switch off). The pump itself is a little more than half way under the chassis to the fuel tank and we put in an inline fuel filter there as well. The other posts here do also have valid points, it was trial and error getting the pressure just right. Start on the low side and work you way up until you maintain fuel at the carb with high demand and don't overflow or flood it on low demand, it's not perfect. One big issue I had with vacuum tanks and our modern fuel is it would gum things up at times and the floats or needle valves or both would not shut off. The result was fuel flowing into the intake manifold. I went out several mornings to find my crank case overflowing with diluted fuel mixed oil. I think the biggest issue with the old vacuum tanks is actually our modern fuel. But, I'm no expert there. When I find what pump we used I will let you know. I don't think it was anything special. Brett

I really hate to get in this discussion, however I find it hard to sit here and see incorrect information presented. All of my 4-cylinder cars are equipped with vacuum tanks. The one exception is the 1918 and it operates from gravity. The vacuum tank is an extremely reliable system if properly maintained. My 1925 Roadster climbed Pikes Peak with driver and passenger. It did not jump up the hill but did make it under it's own power. There is no more difficult test of a vacuum tank than that achievement.


This statement raises my right eyebrow. I suppose gas could run uphill. I have seen far stranger things.

I have been on the last 19 annual 4-cylinder tours and most fuel problems are caused by electric fuel pumps. In theory, the pump sounds like a good idea, but in practice it just an't so.

You can probably have your vacuum tank rebuilt for less money that an electric fuel pump with regulator.

A couple of EXTREMELY knowledgeable veteran 4 cylinder guys have recommended that you stick with the vacuum tank system. Guys that I know personally, and who I know have toured many thousands of miles, for decades; rebuilt their own engines, et cetera. A wise person would listen to them.

I have driven a few miles in a 4 cylinder with a vacuum tank, so I'll offer my opinion, too.

I have in the past also had the misfortune of acquiring a car where someone thought they would "improve" on the original engineering by installing an electric fuel pump. That "improvement" has always been cut out like a cancer - and things put back right. A conversion to an electric fule pump is always a mistake, it's that simple.

The introduction of an electric fuel pump introduces a whole world of new variables into the operation of the vehicle - now you have electrical system issues, you have pressure regulation issues, you have new leaks - and you have lost part of the soul and spirit of what the car is.

Yes, it can be frustrating to get a vacuum tank set up and functioning properly if you have not done it before. But the same could be said of setting point gaps, or adjusting mechanical brakes. Or body work. Or filling out your federal tax return, or raising kids. But once you study the system, understand it and what it's doing, it is a simple enough system. More importantly, it works quite well. It moved these cars all over the country - including Colorado - in the 1920's, and not just Chevrolets.

Take the time to fix your vacuum system. That is easier than all the myriad things that you will have to design, adjust, change, and continually screw around with to make an unsatisfactory electrical fuel pump work. You'll be glad you did it right.

Wow, that sparked a fire...
Well, I can only go by my experience. Vacuum Tanks can be a pain, Electric pump, not perfect, but will work. I didn't do a good job of explaining the fuel in the crankcase. The problem I had with that was the Carb float and needle valve would stick open. And with a Vacuum Tank full of fuel and "above the carb" with gravity flowing down hill, the fuel in the vacuum tank would drain into the intake. Fuel didn't come from the gas tank. As for going with the electric fuel pump, believe me, I talked to a lot of people with more knowledge on the subject than I could ever hope too (most older and wiser than me with experience with these cars)before going that route. If I could have gotten things to work with the vacuum tanks I would certainly have preferred that. And, I tried more than one tank and more than one carb. So, I will leave it to the experts, I think Dansker has a good plan. Don't think ill of me for not necessarily agreeing with your comments, but I do like the sensarity of the conversation. And just in case people are wondering about my experience with this, because I get the feeling you may think me a novice. To this site, yes, to the VCCA, fairly new, but as for my 26 roadster, been driving it when I can for 30 years, my father drove it around the 40 years before that, still does when I let him. Now that doesn't mean I am an expert on this, because I'm not. And, I agree if you can make the vacuum tank work, you should use it. But, they aren't perfect, even when working well, and there isn't anything wrong with and electric fuel pump if that's what makes it work for you. This car worked with a vacuum tank for a good portion of its life, it cracked and needed replaced. The replacement or attempted replacement is when the problems started. Its been working good in the last decade with the electric fuel pump so for now I'll leave it as is. It may again some day use another vacuum tank, if I get the urge to try it again. I have enjoyed the comments and conversation, but it is time to let Dansker work on his car.
Brett

Boy, I didn't mean to start a civil war here guys. I am a novice on these cars and so you are all brilliant to me. This evening I ran air through the fuel line and confirmed it was not blocked. Then I decided to look inside the tank. The float looked like new although it was getting dark but first looks looked very good. The lever and spring mechanism that operate the two valves in the cap seemed to be in good condition and operating properly. What puzzled me was how to remove the upper tank liner so that I can inspect the flapper valve. Again it was getting dark but the wall of the chamber that the float rests in seemed to be part of the tank itself. Any practical suggestions on how to remove the upper tank liner?

Thanks again for all your help. I love your passion for the hobby.

In Chippers post 8693 above, he gives several hints on checking the operation of the Stewart Warner vacuum tank which are all good information. Another problem with the SW tanks are the top, which is made from pot metal. They are very prone to warp. When they do, it is difficult to get them to seal to the tank. If not warped too bad you can use two gaskets to install the top.

I have seen tops warped so bad they actually seize the arms that operate the inlet and outlet valves. A new top is available, however the price will stop the vacuum in your heart.

Just not so. It would flow into the carburetor and if it overflowed it would drain upon the ground.

There is no way fuel can get from the vacuum tank into the cylinders, other than being sucked up through the carburetor. There is one exception, if the seat falls out of the valve that the gas uses to enter the vacuum tank, it is possible for the engine to suck the overflow through the vacuum line directly into the intake manifold, THIS CAN ONLY HAPPEN IF THE ENGINE IS RUNNING.

The condition of the gasket was not great. Likewise several of the screw heads on the cap were pretty destroyed. After your discussion about warped caps I'm wondering if the problem is that the cap is not sealing properly. I think I'll order a couple of new gaskets from the Filling Station. I'll know better tomorrow when I can see better and also inspect the flapper valve.

No war going on at all. I agree with most everything that has been mentioned. The vacuum system when working properly does a good job and you should go that route if at all possible. But if it doesn't work out for what ever reason. I know that an electric fuel pump (not more than 1/2 pound of pressure)will work. But you must deal with the limitations of the electric system and deal with the low pressure requirement.

Nope, no war, just passion for the old Chevys. Bmelia readily says the original parts are preferred, and acknowledges some of the shortcomings of the electric pump method.

More importantly, Dansker is on the right path, and will soon be enjoying the feeling of having figured it all out and having the car back on the road. All good.

I too would like add my 2 cents worth. When I got my 28 coach from Minneapolis and shipped it to Australia it had an electric fuel pump, and it always let me down, one time at midnight on a lonely road, fortunately some came by and offered me a tow. I very quickly changed it back to the original vacuum tank and after 29,000 miles it only let me down once, when the float cracked. I always carry a spare float.
Another reason is I was unfortunate enough to see a very nice 26
Aus delivered coach, fitted with an electric fuel pump catch fire when started up, and if my mate didn't have a fire extinguisher nearby the car would have burnt to the ground. And it was cost around $10,000 to fix.
Stick to the vacuum tank.
Chris

Everyone,

I've had some initial success with my fuel problem. When I examined the flapper valve I found that it was stuck shut. It was heavily varnish covered. It took me a couple of hours to clean the varnish off down to the metal. It was so sticky at first that I could give it a firm press and it wouldn't easily shake loose. I finally got it cleaned up and reinstalled. I primed the tank through the top and cranked the engine. I kept it idling until steam and my Motometer said things were getting hot. I think that is progress. We'll see if it cranks over and runs after a day or two. Now its on to the cooling system. I can't wait to find out how plugged up it might be. Thanks guys for a lot of great advice. Couldn't have done it without you.

Fantastic, this is fun stuff.
Hey chipper and ChevyGuru, this spirited conversation has brought this topic back to life for me. I am going to start a new topic on having a 28 head on a 26 block.
The reason, that's what I have. Was done back in the 30's before my Dad bought the car. I've alway's wondered if that may have something to do with my vacuum tank and carb issues that started back in 2001 with the car restoration. But more details on that and the responses will have to be started on another thread. Which I will do know.
Plus I want to continue the converstation on the strange "fuel in the oil" issue I had then. I know it sounds crazy, form your responses I know you were wondering how much I had to drink. But it happend, and I am still just as puzzled as you and I have only been making logical guesses up to this point.
Signing off for today but look forward to the opinions on this one. Good Job Dansker... you will never stop working on it and thats a good thing. till then Brett

The major problem I have with recommendations to install an electric fuel pump when ever there is a fuel supply problem is that the person making the recommendation most often knows nothing about the original fuel pump. They make the assumption that electric is the best because all modern cars have an electric pump and they must(?) be better than those ancient devices. They either ignore the problem with elastomers and alcohol containing fuel or electric power next to flammable fuel or the pressures produced by electric pumps.

It is akin to the "convert to 12 volts from 6". Obviously 12 volts are better than 6 'cause every manufacturer changed in the mid-50s. "Why keep that obsolete technology when it is so simple to just put in a 12 volt battery?" "Maybe you will need to change a couple of light bulbs." "Well geez you really don't need to know how much fuel you have in the tank do you?" "Okay, it was a bit more complicated than you thought but, just think of the tunes you can get on that AM/FM radio."

"Oh, yes those outmoded, unsafe mechanical brakes have to go." "Power disc are the only way to go." "Just think about your spouse, kids and grandkids that you put at risk."

Do I need to continue?

Hopefully my final reply on this thread but I thought I would let you know that I drove my '23 around the block (two blocks actually) before it started overheating. Brakes were tenuous, clutch a bit grabby and sometimes gears wouldn't engage. But I drove it! Time to call it a day. As for the comment about always working on it, my wife reminded me that we also have a yard. Bummer.

Isn't progress infecting? A little bit and you want more.

If you can keep the Boss happy but not in complete control it is the best you can ask expect.