VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1937-1945 1941 hard to start

After replacing the rear seal for the 2nd time and putting the engine back in the car minus the front sheet metal I am having all kinds of trouble getting the engine to start. To replace the rear seal I took the 4 bearing caps off, disconnected the connecting rods, took off the harmonic balancer and the front cover for the timing gear. I did not remove or disturb the distributor or timing gear. I lifted the crank at the rear seal about 3 inches and slipped in a new seal. I assumed this was not going to damage the timing gear or cause it to skip a gear and become out of sink so I never rechecked it to see if the teeth were in sink with the camshaft. Now with everything buttoned up I am wondering???

At first when I tried to start the car it seemed that I wasn't getting any gas to the carb and too the plugs. The plugs always looked dry so I changed fuel pumps. It seemed to pump better. The car would start but only run at high idle. I took the carb off and found a piece of teflon tape under the float needle so just switched carbs. The new carb allowed the engine to start, but only run at low idle, and to increase the idle I had to manually advance the distributor.

At this point with my limited knowledge I am thinking of replacing the fuel pump again because the engine may be starving for gas, and also put in a back flow valve in the gas line. This is an easy fix??? Or I can pull the oil pan, radiator, harmonic balancer, timing gear cover and check the timing gear for damage and synchronizing?

I am an anal putterer so yes all the carbs I have I have cleaned up and rebuilt so they should not be a problem, as well as the fuel pumps that I switch out????

You should also know that a friend recommended putting in a back flow valve and I need to know if this is good advice? I also noticed that the fuel filter before the carb never seems to fill up completely or maintain a consistent level. Could this further point to a fuel pump problem? And sometimes the fuel pump filter looks half full then after the car sits it may fill up?

What is the best practices recommended for fuel and brake lines? Is teflon tape not recommended and what is, especially for a leaking fitting?

Thanks for any advice, Mike

P.S. The rear seal still leaks, sure wish I could find an original rope seal or figure out what I am doing wrong???

Mike,
You should be able to check and see if the crank/cam gears are out of alignment by locating the timing marks in the bellhousing above the starter. Pull #1 spark plug and put a thin screwdriver in the hold so you can see when the piston reaches top dead center. You might have to turn it another turn, just make sure you are on the compression stroke. Then make sure the timing mark aligns up(ball to pointer). Then take the distributor cap off and see if the rotor is pointing at the #1 terminal. It may be off a tiny bit. I'm not sure if the ball to point is 0. This should tell you if the gears went out of alignment.
If you have a vacuum/psi gauge remove the line at the carb and use the gauge to see how much pressure you have. If the pump was weak I'd be surprised if it would affect the running sitting in the shop, possible though.
I'd also be cautious of using teflon tape just for the reason you mentioned about it getting into things. If you must use it leave the first couple threads bare and then wrap the tape on the threads. If you have the fittings that use ferrules look and see if they are crushed, you may have to get new ones. If you have inverted flare fittings look at the seat on the fitting and see if its damaged and look at the flare itself and see if its cracked.
Is it possible that the oil leak is something other than the rear main seal? With everything you have done I would thing that something else other than the main seal is causing your leak.
Good Luck Don

Mike,

A 41 hard to start! Man-O-Man. We can't have that. It's downright embarrassing. Please don't go about blabbing it. We gotta get that puzzle resolved. Quick. Do too.

OK, Don has given you the same advice I would. You need to determine if the 'ol Victory Six is in time or not. How does it run if you put a little raw gas down the throat of the carburetor? Only do this outside and only with a fire extinguisher and live garden hose handy. Be careful. If it lights up right away and runs pretty good until starved then it may be its not getting enough gas.

Another thing, take the gas line loose at the carburetor and then while someone (maybe the missus ) cranks the engine over, see it it squirts any gas. Crude but a sure fire way to tell. Again only outside and with the before mentioned precautions.

Note: These are tests handed down from generation to generation, clan to clan (although the lines may have become a little obscure over time) in east Tennessee. You bet.

As to the rear main seal, I have a few old oil pan gasket sets. I don't know what type of seal is in them but I'll cut one open to see if its the type you need. Only thing is, I don't think I'd recognize a "rope" type from any other. Maybe I can send a picture. If you want the seal, it will be free. Just let me know.
That's all I can think of at the time,
Charlie

BTW: It may be a good thing before you try either of the raw gas experiments to make sure you can get a call through to 911. We don't hear of you a-roasting marshmallows over a smoldering 41 carcass. Any other model year I'd say don't worry about it and even suggest inviting over the neighborhood kiddies for "smoors", but not a 41. You know. Grin.

To be definitely sure you are on the right stroke,remove the valve cover.While turning the engine over by hand,be sure the intake valve is closing and the piston is coming to the top.When the piston(#1 piston)is at the top you will be on the right stroke and the pointer should be at top dead center or 0,whichever indicator you have.This will eliminate any doubt about what stroke you are on.At this point the rotor should be pointing to #1 post on your distributor cap or very close to it.Be sure to turn the engine over in the same direction it normally runs in.

Mike,
Valve Timing: There are some measurements that can be done with a dial indicator, mostly to verify the camshaft profile. It is probably not possible to tell from the outside whether the two timing gears are aligned properly. With the #1 piston a TDC and the rotor pointing at #1 wire, there should be clearance on both rockers of #1 and at #6, the exhaust valve is closing and the intake if opening. I believe #6 has overlap at this point and probably both rockers are under pressure.

Rear Main seal: The seal will not work if the clearances of the main bearings are excessive. Two things will happen if they are excessive, the crankshaft will move and pound the seal and also there will be excessive oil flow out of the bearings. This flow will flood the rear seal area.

If you want an original type, try Gasket City. Last time I talked to him he still had some old stock. I think the new ones made by Best Gasket are every bit as good.

Teflon Tape: The tape is only used to seal pipe threads. Pipe threads have a straight female and the male is sort of tapered. As the two parts are threaded together, they tighten up and seal. In the plumbing world, teflon tape is used on these. On your car, it could possibly be used on pipe threads involving the heater hoses oand maybe the oil filter. There are no pipe threads in the braking world.

Turn the engine over by hand? Don't use the fan. I know it can be done and not harm a thing but I've bent too many fan blades by doing it. I don't recomemd it. Instead, if you can get to it use a socket and large long arm rachet. Or a crank.

It is always nice to see a fan turning and the blades smoothly tracking each other. Doesn't take much to get them out of alignment and loose the "look."

I'm just saying.
Charlie

Hello Mike, good morning,

Your trouble is a lot!
Let me begin with the easiest one. teflon tape.
I did read about that in a german vintage car magazine, it was recommended in an article about overhauling carburetors.
Remember my trouble with the tank. I made a new outlet and did use teflon tape to seal it. followup: As long the tank was completely filled up it was leaking there. Not much, but enough to worry about.
To be sure about that I put a part of teflon tape in an old coffee mug and did fill in some gas and let rest it overnight. Next morning the tape was "melt" and crumbled. Teflon tape is a mad idea and a bad recommendation of that magazine, it is not fuel-proof.
Did replace it with something, sorry, I dont know the english word for it, just what our grandparents did use to fix a water line at home. It works and my tank does not leak anymore.

the other:
The hard starting engine. In my experience it is wasting time to search a solution by try here, try there, it will maybe create success just by "furtune", but you will never exactly know the "why".
I would sort out all possible reasons step by step and the conclusion can only be success.
I would never work on the spark and at same moment work on the timing for example.
As recommended to check the correct timing you should set the first cylinder on top (UTC?) by using the timing mark on the flywheel and feel the piston beeing really on top position by a wire or anything else through the spark plug hole.
If you are sure to have the right position of the crankshaft you have to check the position of the distrobutor rotor. The finger has to be on spark wire 1 position.
As well take the valve cover off and check the valves. If cyl.#1 is in "firing" position both valves must be closed and you must feel the clearance at the adjustment screw. If all sparks are out you may easily turn the engine by hand. Do it in both directions and very close to cyl. #1 firing point both valves must move. In reverse direction the intake valve must open and in forward direction the outlet must move.

If all these tests create positive results and anything is as expected you may sort out a timing trouble and you can concentrate on other possible reasons.
a concrete systematic search will make the problem visible and will show you the way how to solve it.

As I did with my "getting out of gas at higher speed" thing not long ago. I began at the tank and did end at carburetor, everywhere on the way I found little things not in order. Everything alone just "nuts", but in summary enough to get me in trouble.
Bringing everything in correct order step by step and not beginning next step before having completed the previous one did bring success at first try.

To work like that (systematic) is the professional way. Everything else is wasting time, even if you think to safe time by getting success by fortune. It will mostly not happen.

Hope to read about success here soon!

All the Best
Stefangermany

Hi Stefan, I let my problem rest for the day, and worked at rebuilding/cleaning up a couple of carbs I have as extras. I was getting to confused and creating more problems as I worked on the car. At one point I was not even getting any spark because I had changed condensers and not aligned the points carefully so they were not closing!!! I am not in any big hurry so will try to work on checking the timing next, with the spark plugs out. I do have a very good friend that is real systematic in his approach to problems and just might wait until he is able to help. Thanks everyone, Mike

The problem is the timing. The camshaft gear and crankshaft gear no longer are lining up where they are marked. I know this because I pulled the oil pan, harmonic balancer, radiator, and timing gear cover off. Is there a way to correct the problem without pulling the engine and taking the crankshaft out? Could I take the end caps off the connecting rods, push the pistons up and out of the way, and move the crank enough to realign the gears? Thanks, Mike

I would vote no on that method. I'd just separate the gears and align them up again. That is, when the cam gear is correctly in place, pull the crank gear off and rotate the engine to where the gear, when, replaced will meash correctly with the cam gear.
Good luck,
Charlie

Mike,
The normal way to adjust cam timing is to remove the rocker shafts, push rods, lifters, distributor and fuel pump. That will allow you to remove the camshaft retainer screws and slide it out a bit, rotate to align the cam gear with crank gear, then put it all back together.

The alternate is to pull the crank gear (be extra careful as the cam will be under load and needs to rotate as you pull the crank gear). Rotate the crank/cam to align the marks when the crank gear is fully seated and then reinstall the gear. It is very easy to damage the fiber cam gear unless you are extremely careful. I personally would opt for method 1.

Thanks, Chipper and Charlie I used a lot of both of your advice. I took the crank gear off with a gear puller. Rotated the cam gear with a heavy duty nylon strap wrench. I was only 2 teeth off so it was about 1 to 2 inches. I carefully tapped on the crank gear as I moved the flywheel about 1/8th to 1/4 inch at a time with a large screw driver. After the gears messed completely together. I then checked to make sure the number one cylinder was at the top of its compression stroke, the distributor's rotor was pointing toward the number one spark plug wire in the cap, and that the timing mark on the flywheel was dead center with the flywheel housing, timer pointer. I have great expectations that tomorrow I will get the radiator, etc. back on and it will start right up... Thanks, Mike

P.S. If this doesn't all make much sense it's because I'm tired. Good night, Mike

I would think that the gear on the crank would take consierable force to seat properly.

That should work. Taking care to not damage the cam gear is the secret. As you have found out they don't run with a crap if the cam timing is off.

As an aside there are a bunch of 4 cylinder Chevy cam and crank gears that are mis-marked. It is even covered in the '28 Chevy Repair Manual. But still there are people that assemble the Chevy 4s with the cam timing off. Then they either get the conclusion that the engines are worthless or the mechanic was a cheat or ???? I had to tell a "mechanic" three times to check the valve timing before he finally checked and found that the 80 year old gent that built the engine trusted the marks. When he made the change he called to tell me it was now running like a sewing machine. I so wanted to tell him, "look stupid I told you a long time ago what the problem was" but, I bit my tongue and complimented him in his mechanic skills.

Mike
I would still check correct alignment at the valves, (as someone suggested) with #1 and #6 pistons at TDC #1 valves are fully closed and rockers have clearance while #6 are changing over and quite likely have no or very little clearance. If #6 is on compression #1 will be changing over.
Tony

Old216, the gear did take a lot of force to reinstall, but I hope I was releaving a little of the pressure on the cam gear with not having the plugs in and turning the flywheel gradually (about an 8th of an inch a turn) as I drove the crank gear on. So far everything looks ok!!! Mike

P.S. Tony, I checked that number 1 cylinder compression valve was closed by squirting air into the cylinder and having it come right back out at me instead of running out the exhaust valve. I also stuck a screwdriver into the cylinder and felt the top of the piston with it. I think this should be enough??? If I'm wrong I guess I could take the valve cover off and check? In what circumstance would this occur?

You could try the compressed air in #6. You may get a slight air leak at both intake and exhaust at the same time with piston at TDC, this will depend on the designed valve overlap.

Tony

Saturday, I got things all reassembled, Sunday on the first try the engine fired up and ran for about 2 seconds. On the next restart it fired right up and continued to run. It had a little choppiness at first but after adjusting the carb it purred like a kitten. I am now beginning to trouble shoot some other details. Thanks for all the assistance, Mike

Hello Mike,
I am very happy for you to read you are on the right track now.
Never forget: There are no problems, there are just solutions!
have the letter ready to send, will send it tomorrow.

all the Best
Stefan

Mike,
I like that description: "...purred like a kitten." All 216s purr like a kitten but a 41 purrs like a calculating female cat that wants something you got.

I'm glad you got "preci-weshous" cured of its minor ailment and back in good health again. A good bed-side manner and TLC comes naturally to we 41ers, doesn't it? I'm sure you too say "goodnight" to the missus at bedtime and then as an unfailing, last expression of love direct your voice out toward the garage and say, "goodnight 41. Sleep tight, sweetheart." You know. (Anyone about to hurl yet?) Grin.
Charlie

Charlie, What's wrong with us guys, when the last thing we think of at night is our 41s? Thanks all, Mike