VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION General Discussions Air Car

Someone sent me an email about this car that is supposed to run on compressed air. Gets about 300 miles to the "charge" (whatever).

Is this a joke or what? Suposed to be initially produced for Indians.
Charlie

Charlie:

There is indeed a compressed air car that is scheduled to be introduced in India by Tata Motors in 2011.

Like the electric car according to initial reports it has limited range (approx 80 miles in city and 45 miles on hwy) based on the current size of the tank. Also, when stored it leaks some air. It takes quite a while to refill.

Also, like the electric cars it gets is power from another source and that is usually electric so again you are running your car on coal, nuke, or oil.

You can check it out at:

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/compressed_air_car

(use compressed_air_car when you type it in)

One fact that must be recognized when discussing electric vs other propulsion systems is efficiency. An electric motor is 85-90 % efficient. An internal combustion gas engine is ~ 33% efficient in converting energy to useable power but only 15- 20% if total energy to drive the vehicle is considered. Part of the reduction is in amount of idling and operating accessories (including water pump, alternator, air conditioning, etc.)

I would be remiss if I didn't also point out that some energy is lost between the battery and electric motor. However, the electric power system is ~ 4 times as efficient in utilizing energy as internal combustion gas engines. Diesels are a bit more efficient than gas.

Chipper:

Very interesting.

Do you know what the efficiency rates are for the base sources that are most used to make electricity?

For example is it more efficient to transfer coal to electricity or oil to electricity or nuke to electricity?

Is it more efficient to use coal to drive a vehicle (converted to steam) or to use coal to make electric at a power plant to power the car.

Is it more efficient to use oil to power a car vs using oil to make electric at a power plant to drive the car?

And most important, how does this efficiency rate transfer to cost (including distribution costs)? For instance, is it cheaper to use oil to make gasoline to drive a car rather than take oil to make diesel or some other derivative to make electricity to power a car?

I am talking about using the base source of energy to make electricity at a power plant, not at the source of use as the Chev Volt or a diesel locomotive does.

If you google the topic "electric power generation efficiency" you will find an array of hits. Some have a dog in the fight so take that information with a large dose of salt. Others present a reasonable assessment and data.

If course that does not necessarily give the total ground to power cost. There are some that give "well" to power evaluations. Those are intended to give a relative cost and efficiency from the resource or raw material to final product. Of course transmission loss for electric power, natural gas are also important parts of any accurate comparison. That is an important part of the calculation since NIMBY has forced generation far from populated areas. It is also a major factor in wind and solar power generated electricity as those tend to be located far from the ultimate users.

As an example when I was involved in plastic recycling we did what we called "Life cycle analysis". It was an attempt to determine the relative cost and value for recycling. It took several iterations and many years to come up with what we considered accurate calculations. Of course plastics cost determinations were a bit more complicated than power generation but the process is similar.

Doc,
Another consideration is the environmental effect of power generation. Then there is the fact that some generation methods are dependent on weather (solar, wind, wave), others have relatively short cycle times (off line to online) and others have long cycle times. All that helps to complicate (confound?) the calculations.

My info says that same India produced French invented compressed air car should be on the road by 2007and would go about 30 miles on a charge at 25-30 MPH then need to start the gasoline engine to pump it up to get back home, Maybe I just have a cheap computer internet connection!
Of course our present Internal combustion engines use more air per hour than a TATA car can haul in the compressed version alongwith about 1/14th amount of gasoline by volume. I always believe that you don't get energy for free, unless you are the main passenger in Air Force 1.

One of the considerations for powering a car or truck is "The Lazy Factor" which most Americans have fallen for. A self serve pay at the pump with plastic gas station on every corner or having to be home every night to plug in the car and then see the old electric bill go into orbit. We have become people of habit.

All I want is a 4000 lb car or truck that will haul or pull 10,000 lbs of load at 70 MPH and yeild 25 MPG of $1.74/ gallon fuel for 400 miles without having to re-fuel. whether it is diesel, gasoline, powdered coal, wood chips, sea water, electrons, protons, gamma rays, neutrons or alpha particles, air, LPG, compressed air, corn squeezings,frog barff, bananna pealings or stale beer. I just want to get me and my stuff over yonder today, and back home day after tomorrow, without it costing me an arm and a leg!
Dream on boys, dream on. While yaw'll are dreaming I'll be praying.

See yaw'll over yonder drinking Free Bubble-Up, and eating Rainbow Stew!

MrMack,
Speaking of diesel locomotives, doesn't the diesel engine merely operate a generator to furnish electricity to the "drive" motors?

As pointed out, unless it's wind power or solar power or gravity something has to be converted to usable condition. There has been sails for years and solar powered car engines (experimental), also. But I doubt they would meet your stated demands. Grin.

When you get right down to it, it is not so much a source problem for gasoline but one of infernal greed. All those in the source and manufacturing food chain point the finger at the other guy as the culprit for high prices. I don't understand all the mechanics involved in the cost of a gallon of gasoline but I'm not so stupid as to not believe that I'm (read we) are not being taken unfair advantage of.

A millionaire pays $4.50 at the pump. Same as a single mom trying to make ends meet. ( Spare me the "Who's John Galt?" line.) Good for the millionaire but sad for the mom. We need to level the playing field some.
Charlie

BTW: You will note that I have stayed away from politics.

BTW2: MrMack for sources for conversion to power, you missed the one most often mentioned by the "Kingfish" in Amos and Andy: "Fig Newtons."

Charlie:

Re your quotes:

"You will note that I have stayed away from politics"
"We need to level the playing field some."

Just a question, isn't treating people differently because of decisions they have made in life that determined the money they now possess, a form of redistribution of wealth which is clearly a know political philosophy?"

Also, how do you define "unfair advantage."

Just asking!

Yes that is right. My first experiance with diesel over electric was on a LeTourneau-pul a 1950s era earthmover powered by a 250 HP Cummins diesel that drove a 5 speed transmission primemover with a DC generator mounted between the flywheel and the manual clutch. The generator drove the electric motors for steering, hoist winch and crowd and lip retractor. the switches were all toggles mounted on the dash behind a full length grab bar. Later models had an electric motor mounted in each wheel (the electric wheel) a R.G. Le Tourneau invention, that eliminated the manual transmission and differential and axle setup. I would like to hear from any other Tournapul operators from 1959 through 1965 for a short time when I was operating heavy equipment between college and the Marine Corps.

About being unfair about prices for gasoline, I think that a gallon of Gasoline is still cheaper than a gallon of Scotch whiskey or even a gallon of beer, that comes right out of the Rockies and has much less energy content!

David,

I assume that you have read Ayn Ryan's "Atlas Shrugged." That was the reason I asked that I didn't need John Galt's long speech, ad nauseam, about taking from the rich and giving to the poor. I understand that. Nonetheless, it seems that not all of us are born the same or have the same choices in life. Thus one of the reasons for helping others, no matter their past choices. It is what a compassionate human being does.

But, you are right. Such distribution of wealth may not come about except though government involvement. I was merely trying to get in under the radar with my comments owing to the forum's caution for no politics, et al.

I define unfair advantage as being needlessly greedy. As in usury. As an example, when oil producers in concert assemble to charge so much a barrel. Ever notice that when the serious governmental notion of drilling is discussed the price per barrel seems to comes down until that hiccup is over.

Although I agree that it goads our sensibilities, in principle at least, to give to those who, having the aptitude for a better life, have flaunted it and become the ward of the state and/or dependent upon the compassion of their fellow man.

Now, I believe we should leave this topic alone. If it will help to do that, I'll concede that I don't know what the heck I'm talking about and thus acquiesce to your better perspective.
Charlie

"Government is a contrivance of human wisdom to provide for the human wants. Men have a right that these wants should be provided for by this wisdom." Edmund Burke (1729-1797)