VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION General Discussions Electric Cars - yes or no!

John...How About if you drove your electric car to the train station garage and had a portable gasoline powered generator in the trunk, started it up and recharged your electric car for the trip home? the generator may use 1/3 of the gas your car would use (if it was a gasoline powered car) for the trip to & from the station to home.
I guess what I am thinking here is "there is more than one way to skin a cat" the good part here is thinking always makes things better....Brains got us to the MOON & back (maybe,Unless we were scammed which is not out of the question and would not surprise me).The more problems we have the more folks think and the faster we solve them.

John...How About if you drove your electric car to the train station garage and had a portable gasoline powered generator in the trunk, started it up and recharged your electric car for the trip home? the generator may use 1/3 of the gas your car would use (if it was a gasoline powered car) for the trip to & from the station to home.

In todays world, someone would steal your generator.

Well being an engineer, you should have known that that piston steam engine traditionaly requires a burn off fuel. Wood or coal. THAT is your burn. That is also a source which creates another source which is heat. What im talking about though does not require another fuel source to create heat. I'd love to go into detail but im not sure if you all would comprehend what im describing. A car, with a modernized steam piston engine with modern safteys. In turn while in use, charging the electric batterys. After a while steam getting low, switching to electric ti'll the steam engine is refueled. Your heat source, an electrical heater for steam. Coming right out it sounds primitive, but with modern technology's and alot of engineering it could be braught to modern standards, quiet as a hybrid with a silencer and double the millage of anything on the road today. ...Or we could just go nuclear...the problem with that is radioactivity. What i describe isnt near as dangerous. And again, with modern technology's even though may be costly in concept stages, practicality and mass production equals it to be quite practical. Fuel sources needed, Water and an electrical energy storage device. A BATTERY. Quite litterly a car only needing one thing to run. Water.

Guys
Where I park I KNOW THEY WOULD STEAL THE GENERATOR! welcome to greater NYC. There is a reason why we all have caps on our pick-ups.......

Part of my point is that the visionary ones do not see the need for charging locations to be installed at any new locations yet.. maybe they know that EV's won't last sort of like 8 track tapes came and went and nobody missed them. Any way you look at it there is a need to use fossil fuels either for the utilities to generate power for the grid or the pump. Also like to point out to the guy who was concerned about the Northern Areas loosing power due to ice storms not being able to charge cars, good to note but you can't pump fuel or run a cash register either with out electricity. Once the municipalities can figure out a way to charge for the electric, and there is enough of demand for it you will see charging stations all over like NYC parking meters
John

I don't even know why i am takeing the time to answer this suggestion that we use Battery electric power to generate steam, to run a car?... Funny!!!!

Not as funny as it sounds. Never rule out possibility. And actually it's two energy sources put togeather one working independantly from another yet recharging electrically. Eaither that or we all run our cars on Moonshine. How funny does that sound now?

beleive it or not, this concept was actually produced at one time. Gas was used instead as a heat source. But the automobile (and i lack it's name) (how conveineint) was never experimented with further do to it was deemed expensive, impractical and some quoted to be extreemly dangerous. (no it wasnt the stanley steamer) Im sure with todays capabiltiys it could be braught anew and made practical.

Thats about as close to GREEN as your going to get.

Ti'll people are willing to accept it, we have fossil fuel.

So then you have to ask, is it going green that is more economical or is it running our fossil fuels more economical.

We have what we have and ti'll then we eaither accept it or DO something about it...or continue to complain and walk.

I dont know the details but here in Aus during petrol rationing there was a "Gas" producing unit using charcoal. While it was reasonably successful there were a lot of anxious moments when the fire escaped from its container and got into the charcoal storage area, I have heard of several cars burnt out this way.
Tony

Well what i purpose in a little more detail is steam and electric working in tandem yet powering the car independantly. On the electric side, there would be a heating unit for the steam boiler. In turn, the steam working a small generator turbine regenerating the electric battery. When electricity gets low, sencors would kick in and switch the car to the steam generator which produces power to the car. Now when the steam boiler gets low on water at a certain level, a sencor would once again kick in and switch the car to electric power ti'll you could refill the water tank (the size of a gas tank) at your conveineince. The only problem is getting the steam side to immidiatly produce power. This could be remedied by the preheating of the boiler at the flip of a switch while the electric side is in use. ofcoure there would be another sencor to deny pre-heating if the water was low. If this could be perfected, for the casual driver you could likely get perhaps an untold 80 to 100 MPG. While im not sure if this would actually be practical for commercial vehicles, im certain that even for the every day casual driver there would be a rather DROMATIC change. quite literally, it would be a car to make it's basic operation off of water and produce NO byproduct.

My theory still relies on Hydrogen and not battery pwr. Either separating the hydrogen or some sort of catalyst to move the electrons. Hydrogen Fuel Cell is a step in the right direction and I am a firm believer that the technology in this field has progressed much more than we are told about but is being kept (for some reason) under raps.

This could possibly explain the $5.00 a gal. price tag and no apparent effort to resolve or antidote the situation. (get as much as you can, for as long as you can, before obsolescence)

It's a good idea but if it's true that hydrogen is extreemly flammible then what you have is a literal bomb and very volitile. What happens when two vehicles collide? It will be a little more than a fender bender. I CANT say my thought is any better...becouse were you have steam colision, can act aswell as a bomb aswell as possibly scalding someone to death...but one has to start thinking in some way or another. If you dont then you never get anywere. Combination electric steam wouldnt be highly volitile however.

Hydrogen likely will never be a viable solution as a mobile power source. There are two problems. One is the weight of the tank. But the big kahuna is the cost to produce the hydrogen. If from water it takes either high heat or electrolysis or come from hydrocarbon. None of those are inexpensive and some have greater impact on the environment.

With improvements being made to battery technology and more in the offing, electric propulsion is most likely the winner in the long term.

http://5magazine.wordpress.com/2011/02/20/the-jaguar-c-x75-electric-supercar/
I'll give this electric a great big YES!!! I want one.

Now thats getting close to what I stated about on board generated fuel. A motor on all 4 wheels....real deal 4x4.

I don't fancy those cars a whole lot, but I would sure like to give that one try.

As I understand it the WW2 "gas producers" would fit in the trunk of most "standard" cars of the time and would run for an hour or so on a handful of 1 of the base fuels and I am not sure what the base fuels were.
I remember parts of a TV story from 30+ years ago about a standard engine car running on water and I think they recycled most of the exhaust gases.
I have also seen a "hydrogen producer" keep a 250ci engine running at idle only off a gallon of water but never tested the consumption rate. The basic description of this unit is on the WWW.
The patents for all of these have probably been bought up by the oil companies and details destroyed as happens with any similar idea that looks like cutting their sales.
Tony

Automobile gadgets have been proposed for nearly as many years as automobiles have been produced. Some few work and are relatively quickly incorporated into production vehicles. Others are based on "junk" science and will never work as promoted.

I worked for over 30 years for a major corporation, the majority of time attempting to develop ways to make products to improve the economic future of the company. Part of that dealt with the major auto companies and direct interaction with their research and development people. They were also trying to develop products that would give them an advantage over their competition and meet the requirements set by governmental agencies. They and we investigated every one of those "schemes" and products to see if there was any real potential. The vast majority have been around for decades in one form or another. They include Fish carburetors, water injection, spark intensifiers and the list goes on. Some were patented (patents are public records) but many were not for various reasons (mostly because they didn't really work as claimed). And even some that were patented did not really work but the patent examiners either did not do diligent research or were so overwhelmed with the volume of work that they did not have time to do the research (I have seen both in my patent research. Yes I have some patents issued to me so know the process.)

I don't want to embarrass anyone so will not state what I really think of conspiracy theories and those that believe in them. Will only point out three basic facts. One is that the laws of thermodynamics and energy are still valid. Second is that each company will do what they can to take advantage of situations to promote their company and have an advantage over their competition. Personal egos and inquisitive nature will fairly quickly bring out secrets. People will believe what they want whether it is actually true or not.

OOPS! I mean>>>>>

Today I heard on the radio that to releave the back log of orders GM was going to start a second shift producing the Volt. And, plans are to add a third shift soon.

Those babies are a-selling faster than burnt matches. Well, faster than hot cakes. (I just threw in the burnt matches thing to see if y-all wuz attending.) You know.

I suppose that if we get enough of them on the roads then we won't have to "DRILL, BABY, DRILL" will we MRMack. I bet you got one on order. Grin.
Charlie

41 Special Deluxe

I suspect you need a new radio. Last year the CEO of GM said the Volt would sell 60,000 cars in its first year. They will be lucky to sell 10,000. According to their own sales reports GM sold 326 in Dec; 321 in Jan; and 281 in Feb even though the federal government is bribing consumers with up to $7,500 in tax credits and many states offer similar bribes. The Edsel did better than this with no bribes.

Perhaps it is because the CEO was wrong with other things. He said last year that when running on gas it would get over 250 mpg but Consumer Reports found 35 mpg was more accurate which is much less than other gas compacts costing under $20,000 (the Volt is priced over $40,000 before tax incentives).

Or perhaps it is because the CEO of GM said the Volt would get over 40 miles on electric before it needs 10 to 12 hours of charging or to use the gas-powered engine. Consumer Reports and Motor Trend have reported that may be true on a test track, but the minute you turn on your radio, use the heat or air, go up a hill, or go over 35 mph it goes down into the 20's. That wouldn't take me to Walmart and back in the hot AZ sun with air on.

And last, but certainly not least, not everyone is buying the electric story because electric is not a base-energy source. In the US the majority of electricity is produced by coal, oil, hydro, and nuke. Since coal is the major source of electricity the average electric car owner is actually driving a car powered by COAL and OIL(gasoline)!!!

Mr Mack is correct we need to drill, drill, drill. The future may be electric cars but not in my remaining years. I need a car and/or motorhome that will drive all day, up and down mountains, and in the hot sun before I need to refuel.

KEEP ON TRUCKIN' and DRILL, BABY, DRILL

There are "2" areas where most of our technology comes from, War and Space. We have plenty of war but soon no space. You don't see the spin-off from this until it is considered "old" and these advancements are in medical and science and filters it's way into our lives. Without a space program I fear these advancements will slow or maybe even cease altogether.

I find it very hard to believe that there isn't some kind of spin-off looming in the shadows waiting for the opportune moment for exploitation. History has shown that we are always able to overcome this kind of crap but only when unimpeded. EVs are older GVs and by all means should be more advanced than what we see today.(Buy my car or else!)

David,
Well, shucks! I sure thought I heard that correctly. Perhaps I was wrong. I had the radio on out in the garage whilst a-sorting out some old Chevrolet parts and may have heard wrong. Check that. According to you and your media sources, I am about as wrong as a fart during a seance. Nonetheless, I'll give that old Sony a good whack tomorrow and "learn" it to give me false information.

It is my understanding that Volts aren't even available to a lot of dealers yet. That could explain the low sales numbers but what are facts. I thought they were selling fairly well. Hmmm.


At the current price of gasoline, I think I can put up a little less speed, A/C, etc in return for not having to constantly buy increased monthly credit on my Wal-Mart card. Maybe not.

Anyhow, it's good to have a titled authority on the subject to enlighten us. Thanks so much.
Charlie, MA ED

BTW: If it turns out that what I heard today concerning GM's pending increased production of the Volt was accurate, I would expect an update on your post reflecting your error, doctor.

Well Charlie, after I paid my taxes, fixed up my broke down vehicles and bought a couple of tanks of gasoline, I don't have enough money left to buy an old white legghorn setting hen! It is a good thang that I done give up cigarettes and going to the beer joint and pool hall, since I found Jesus. About the onlyest vice I now have left is cussing our politicians up there inside the D.C. beltway, and sniffing the tank on the 68 Impala, I about give that up too since my knees went bad and I can't get down there at the filler below the bumper! ...."It it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck atall....Gloom.....Despair,... agony on me, deep dark depression, excessive misery!"

41 Special Deluxe

Now you could be right that GM is adding lines for the Volt in anticipation that they might build double the number, after all it is owned by the government and we all know that their great example is the post office.

Also, remember, the government has been buying these Volts and has been pressuring companies like GE to buy them, so the current demand is artificial if we change the government in 2012.

I did an update and found a source that promotes electric cars and it states that the Volt has sold about 1700 through April or an estimated 5,100 for this year. The Leaf, which is considered to be the better car by Motor Trend, which has no production problems sells about 500 a month for a little over 6,000 a year. Compare that to the Dodge Ram pickup which sells about 25,000 to 30,000 a month and I think you will agree that electric cars have a long way to go.

As to paying higher prices for gas to just think of breakeven analysis, not day to day costs. The Volt will cost you about $40,000, a compact Toyota will cost you around $15,000 and gets over 40 mpg. Calculate how many years it will take you to make up that difference if you drive that Volt over 25 miles a day.

Finally, since leaving Az for the summer we have driven about 2,000 miles. It has taken us about 6 days. If I had an all electric car that got me 25 miles a day (I listen to the radio and use the heat and air when needed), it would have taken me 80 days running on coal. I am not even where I am going and I'd have to turn around to return to AZ for the winter.

If I use the gas on the Volt I would have used 57 gallons. My SUV gets about 24 mpg so I have used about 83 gallons, or 26 more or about $93 more in gas at $3.60 a gallon (which we have been paying) or about 5 cents per mile. If I drive 15,000 a year (which is about average) that is about $750 a year. The Volt costs about $15,000 more than my SUV so my breakeven is about 20 years and that does not even include new batteries. It is early in the AM so my math may be off a little but you get the point.

Sorry, I have to stick with my main point. Electric (coal) cars may be the future, but not in my lifetime.

The rage for electric vehicles has already begun and none of you guys have recognized it? Shame on you. Just visit nearly any property having over 1/2 acre (and less than the owner feels requires a "Gator" or similar internal combustion engined vehicle), or a driveway over 50 feet long or the big Kahuna a retirement park or subdivision. Yes it is the used electric golf cart for the cheapskates or the special bodied carts that resemble '57 Convertibles or ???? Their range is only a few miles but people pay thousands of $$$$ just to save a few steps (okay maybe several hundred) and then complain about their deteriorating health. Go figure!

The electric vehicle age is upon us. Abet starting slow and small but it is growing by the thousands.

See? I jess knowed you'd try to weasel out of acknowledgement that my radio and my hearing weren't bad after all. I was just reporting what I heard on the radio. Nothing more. Yet you jumped right in and said that my poor old Sony was misbehaving.' Shame on you. My ol' Sony radio is still a-smarting from the smack I gave it this morning. I ain't none too happy (read POed) with you, either. Grin

Now as to the instant question your raised about the feasibility of buying a Volt, et al, to replace the gas hog, well I suppose the only real value, over time, is the pleasure of a lower fill up price. I filled my Yukon the other day and it took $111 worth of regular. Ouch! Man. That hurt.

Tell me, all you smart people, why is it when I go to meets like Hershey, Carlisle and Charlotte that those little three and four wheel handicap carts run all dang day long on a single battery charge and haul people anywhere they want to go. Up hill, down hill, makes no difference. On those little bitty tires, tars, casings (pick one). Why can't a car do that on an even greater degree given its size and battery hauling capacity? Relatively speaking, I should be able to go to California and back on a single charge. Could do so now on a handicap cart, if I had the time. Please tell me why that is.

We need some of those companies that guarantee that they will get Medicare to pay for one of those buggies to put their mind to making an automobile. Yep.
Charlie

This all just makes my headbolts spin. I say we just eat alot of beans and fart in our tanks.