VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1933-1936 34 dc overheating

I am having a few problems with my Chevy Standard overheating.
From when the motor is cold, it takes about 7 minutes and then the water level in the radiator starts to rise. When this happens it appears as the water is getting hotter,it rises, until it starts to come out the overflow pipe. By this time, the water is boiling.

When I shut the motor down_before too much water is lost_ the water level drops in about a minute. If I keep it running a bit longer - 1 or 2 minutes and shut the motor down, the water bubbles out the top, like a water fountain for a few seconds, before settling back down.

The motor hasn't had a good work out in over 50years, and there was quiet a bit of rusty gunk when I flushed the system. This I've done no less than "50,000" times in the last week, if you know what I mean.

I've taken the fan belt off and ran the motor for 5 minutes giving the throttle short bursts to see if any bubbling occurred - None. The only bubbling is when the water reaches boiling point which takes about 7 minutes to happen. No bubbling is present before this time.

I've had a compression test, with 5 cylinders reading 100 psi and 1 cylinder reading 90 psi. I was told this is okay, so long as they all fall within 10% of each other.

I've had the timing reset, points and spark plugs cleaned, although today I notice the motor has a slight miss in it when the revs are raised a little.

I have the feeling there is more rusty gunk at the back part of the head, as today I used my third brand of radiator flush, which produced a little bit of rusty muck.

So far I've used (not all together)'Bars Leaks - radiator flush', Nulon- radiator flush', baking soda, and I have a bottle of Loctite-radiator flush, which I'll use tommorrow.
However, I'm anxious to take out the heater plug, but it is stuck hard and fast, but I think if I can undo the plug, then I'll be able to clean the back part better.


Has anyone experinced something like as I described?

Taking the head off is one of my last options as it's such a big job. The other option is to find a tree and hang myself! LOL
Steve

My 52 was a trailer queen prior to my buying it, the car sat a lot in a warehouse and the antifreeze was probably well beyond the age of continued use. When I pulled the head the holes in the head and in the block were plugged with fine rust particles, I did a back yard flush in the garage, had the head rebuilt, when I put if back together I took it to a shop and had the whole thing reverse flushed, looked good, filled with new antifreeze, drove a short time and over heated, had to pull the radiator and have it recored, I have done several chemical flushes, several pure water flushes, drained the block several times and when I started using the car again this summer about half way through the year it started to heat up again, had to have the radiator rodded out.If I had to do it over again I would have pulled all the soft plugs scraped out what I could and done a week long soak in vinegar prior to putting the car back together. I just do not see how any thing less than an all out effort would cure the problem. :(

Standard- Don't hang yourself yet!
Because this process happens in only seven minutes, are you sure your water pump is functioning and that water is circulating in the engine? When your hand is on the upper radiator hose can you track the heat through the hose and radiator after the thermostat opens? Is the hot water boiling up from the bottom hose or the top hose? Are you sure you have bled all the air out of the system each time?
I had a very low mileage (10,000)1958 235 that I put into service after sitting many years, and it did what you describe- but not in seven minutes. It turned out that it was just a lot of crud in the block. After "50,000" flushes it finally ran cool. My flushes progressed from just plain water to using everything on the market (sounds like you are almost there), to backflushing, to doing everything above again combined with compressed air. Removing that rear plug is very important for getting to the hard to reach places, and also for bleeding air. Even if you get the block pretty clean your radiator could still be clogged. Did you remove it and have it professionally "boiled" out? At home flushing rarely cleans the radiator very thoroughly.

Keep us posted!

SPEEDLINE

You mentioned that you had a heater. Did you check for a stuck thermostat? If the thermostat is stuck in the closed position, the symptoms that you described will appear. :confused: :confused:

Thanks for the input. Most appreciated.
The 34 Standard never had a thermostat, well not downunder anyway. I had a guy that reproduces water pumps for th 34's take a look at the pump, which I pulled off the motor. He looked at it all over, and said it was okay. He couldnt get it any better than what it was.

I've not tried tracking the heat through the hoses as yet, but the radiator is hot all over when I place my hand on the core on various locations on the core. Something I can do today.

Sounds like my 34 is much the same habit as
what Glyn described with his Chevy.
Soft plugs? Do you mean the Welsh plugs at the back and front of the head, and also can you describe the benifits of what vinegar does, as this sounds interesting.

I've also been trying to get hold of a temperature gun. Most warehouse's have these to check the temperature in the back of freezer trucks, and I seen a picture a few issues back in the G&D of a guy holding it against the head of the motor. My thoughts on this, if any areas of the head is blocked then there'd be a variation in the temperature.

I'll keep you posted.
Steve
Sydney, au

HI, sounds like these guys have covered most of the bases. A couple of other things you can check are:
1. Is the water pump packing allowing air to be sucked into the system. If it is, you will get steam rising from the coolant before the water gets up to temperature.
2. I have found that modern rad shops can't really clean the radiator properly if it has scale caked inside. Their flow tests may even say it is fine but in fact it is partly plugged. I found the only solution if it is a radiator problem is to get it recored.

Good luck

Hi Standard 34,

Everyone else has an opinion on your overheating problem, so let's see if I do. Yep, I do.

All the suggestions are good, however we have not addressed the cracked head syndrone/blown headgasket. Modern radiator shops have a liquid that is placed in the radiator, the engine is run, and if water and exhaust are mixed the liquid will reveal this. If the chemical reacts, then it could be cracked head or blown headgasket. A lot easier to find out with the chemical than to remove and magnaflux head and inspect for faults in the headgasket.

My experience has been that a very rapid boil is usually associated with a cracked head.

You mentioned that you had at one time used 'Bars Leaks'. Bad idea, as is any leak repair product.

One more response, when I mention soft plugs I am referring to the soft metal plugs placed in the side of the block, also known improperly as "freeze plugs" I read about the vinegar trick in one of the other forums, I had an old fuel gauge sending unti that was rusted solid, soaked in vinegar for two days and rinsed it off, almost all the rust came off and the darn thing started to move up and down again. It was to late to svae it tho. Anyway the article I read said to soak an old block for about two weeks in vinegar prior to refilling with coolant. I did not have but a week and put a 5/50 of white vinegar 5% acidity level and water in the block, When I drained the block I could not beleive the gunk that came out, I refilled with water and baking soda to neutralize the vinegar and refilled, by that time the radiator was back from being rodded out (no caustic soak) replaced it and for the little time I had left to drive it this fall all was well again. :rolleyes:

Speedline:
Have checked both hoses for heat flow. The top hose is hotter than the bottom hose.

AntiqueMechanic:
'Bars Leaks - radiator flush'. This is a flushing solution and not a leak repair solution. I'm not too fussed about using the quick fix gunk, but figured using a radiator flush would be okay. The last flush I used was this morning, made by Loctite. I may have welled spat in the radiator for all the good it done.

Its just that taking the head off is such a big job, so I'm leaving this as my last option.

The liquid idea in the water system sounds pretty good. I'll have to investigate if the radiator guys have this product down here.

dlongmuir
I've had a new core installed, but unsure if air is being sucked in from the water pump. With Coolant, I simply don't have this in, as I've flushed the system out that many times, using the coolant everytime I filled the radiator, becomes expensive. But as far as steam rising before the water boils, both appear to take place at the same time. If air was being sucked in from the water pump, how does this happen? The thought came across my mind that there maybe air pockets, but if there was how would this be fixed?

glyn:
The white vinegar trick sounds good.
----

The latest 'adventure' has me using caustic soda (gasp!), which appears to be working pretty good. If using this, you have to be mighty carefull none spills on the paint work etc.

Thinking aloud here...should the caustic soda not do the trick, I'll use the white vinegar, Glyn mentioned, followed by the freeze plugs.

[As far as radiator cleaning products go, I think I've just about used all what is on the market with limited success, so won't be buying anymore.]

Should the vinegar and freeze plugs fail, then the liquid that AntiqueMechanic wrote about seems promising, and will check to see if this is avaible down here. Failing that, I get a back flush done with the aid of a compressor. After that, I guess the head will have to come off.

The way things are, I feel there is still rusty gunk at the back of the head as everynow & then when doing the flushing, some of this appears.

I'll keep you posted on how this caustic soda works. Keep the advice coming as don't forget someone in the future may have this problem which a search on the site will bring this topic up.

Steve

Caustic soda seems to be working far better than what I have been using.

Dave: The steam is starting to appear before the water boils, although the water is darn hot when the steam appears...ouch. LOL

Also before when the motor was cold, it took about 7 minutes before the water level started to rise in the radiator, now it is taking about 9-10 minutes. Something is happening.

I've not flushed out the caustic soda as yet. I've ran the motor until such time the water starts to rise, just below the top of the radiator and then shut the motor down and let cool. Once it cools, I start the motor up and go through the process again, as I was told the caustic soda does it's work when the water is hot. It certianly appears it is as the water is turning very brown.

The same problem persits though, of after shuting the motor down, the water level rises abit and then drops. Of interest, when I shut the motor down a while ago, this happened and I gave the whole car a shake, and seen a bubble appear in the water, which the level dropped far quicker. Air pocket?

Steve

Standard34-
I have a few more thoughts regarding air pockets. I live in a mountainous area, and whenever I have to do a complete refill on a six, I take a spin up and down a nearby steep road. This seems to help get the air pockets out and I can see the temp needle dive when it all settles down. Also, don't give up on the rear plug. When you get it loose work a coat hanger around in there, it does help some.

SPEEDLINE

standard34 says he does not have a thermostat installed. Therefore, there is really no reason to expect any air pockets.

Unless I overlooked it, there has been no mention of the condition of the baffle plate behind the water pump. When the waterpump was removed was this plate inspected?

According to the parts book, 1934 Standard models did not use a water pump baffle plate. :eek: :(

According to the water pump expert, the 34 Standard never had enough room inside the pump to accomodate a thermostat.
I over looked informing everyone,in previous postings,about the water pump (internal)not being big enough, so I apoligize for this.
Still, the more we ask, the more we learn, hey.

The caustic soda, I've since dumped and flushed the system. The result had quiet a bit of rusty brown water coming out. So much for manufacturers radiator cleaners!!

I've given it a second dose, but this time around, the water isn't discolouring as quick as the last time. The water level still rises when it starts getting hot too. :(

Sounds like I'll have to attack that freeze plug at the back. Still, I've been happy in todays result using the caustic soda.

I'll keep you posted.
Steve

I am afraid of Caustic soda, my dad used it all the time with no problem. I owned a 68 Jeepster with the Buick V-6, heater did not work, seemed to be rusted up so I used caustic soda to flush, went in the house for about 5 minutes and when I came out the radiator had more holes in it than my wifes macaroni drainer! Never did help the heater, found out the hoses were switched from top to bottom. :(

First see the posts for the '28 radiator overflow problem in the 1912-28 forum.water loss problem. Second the caustic soda will remove grease and oil but not too much rust or corrosion products. It basically takes acid or chelants. Vinegar is acetic acid (dilute). My suggestion is to add a 1:10 to 1:20 dilution of muriatic acid (35% hydrochloric acid). [Muriatic acid can be purchased at a swimming pool chemical supplier]. Put the water in a bucket and add the acid to the water. Do it in a well ventilated area. Acid fumes are bad, bad, bad to breathe. If you add the water to the acid it will get real hot and can boil throwing hot acid on you. Not a good idea!!! :eek: :eek: Keep a sample of the dilute acid for later. Disconnect the hoses from the radiator if there is any question on whether it can take the acid. You can plug the bottom hose or hook them together if you leave a vent open. Run the engine until the water is hot 60-80 C (160 F) or so and shut off. Let set until cool. Drain a little water off. If bright yellow drain and refill with fresh dilute acid water mix. If like lemonaide run it again and let cool. If not too much darker drain and flush with water. The yellow color in the water is dissolved iron from corrosion products in the block. Since you don't have inhibitors in the acid solution you will dissolve a bit of the base iron which will also give a yellow color. When the flush water is clear fill with solution of baking soda in water. A few spoon fulls to 1/2 cup should be enough. Stir it up until it all dissolves. Run engine a few minutes and shut off. When cool drain off a little. Drip a little of the drained water into the sample of acid that you kept. If it bubbles flush again with water and fill with coolant. If it does not bubble flush again with the baking soda solution.
The bubbling indicates that all the acid is neutralized.
If you don't feel comfortable using strong acids then use vinegar. It will take longer and require much more vinegar than muriatic acid but it is much safer. :eek:

Caustic Soda is working. Everyday the water gets a bit more dirty.
The time it takes for the water to overflow out the top has also increased in time. Use to be 7 minutes from a cold start til the water started to overflow, now it is almost 10 minutes.
**IMPORTANT** Caustic Soda will eat into any alloy parts, so don't use this if you have an alloy head etc, otherwise you'll have a 'blob' between the front wheels.


Will be taking the back freeze plug out this weekend, and also give the white vinegar a hit, if I can't get the Muriatic acid.

For air coming into the water pump, I've been told there should be traces of water were it is entering, but the water pump and surroundng area is dry as a bone.

Steve

HI, regarding the water pump sucking in air, I and others I know have had this happen and there was no coolant leaking around the pump. I believe it causes air pockets within the engine or head and this will cause the coolant near the air pockets to boil and thus the steam can be seen when looking into the radiator, before the coolant is actually overheated.

This may not be your problem, but it is not uncommon. Good luck.....David