VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1937-1945 235 and 216 Engines

I believe there were changes over the life (production run) of the 235 and the 261. Gene has graciously pointed out the changes to the 216 but not -as far as I know - these two engines.

I'd like to know some of the major diferences in each.

Which year 235 is most preferable for an engine swap.

Which year 261 is most preferable for an engine swap.

Is there much weight difference between the 216, 235 and the 261?

Does the oil filter on the 261 get in the way of the grear shift or anything else. Does it need to be rerouted?

Is the problem with the front mount the same for the 261 as it is with the 235 when installing/swapping either in place of an origonally equiped 216.

When swapped out, is the torque and/or horsepower very noticable in the 236 or 261 over the origonal 216?

If one had both engines - 236 and 261, both in good shape, which would you swap out with the 216 and why?

Final question: Does anyone doubt that I'm nit-picky?
Thanks,
Charlie

Thinking bout goin ( NON-ORIGINAL ) Charlie ?

Dang! Busted again.

most of the external features of the 261 is comparable to the same year model of a 235, which is preferable? What application do you want?
Balanced and modified (hotrodded) the 261 was a good sleeper engine for the six cylinder cars. I don't think there was much difference in the weight of the 235 and 261, most external parts would interchange.
The 261 was a truck engine as was the 235 truck engine with mechanical lifters and a couple of other differences from the passanger powerglide engine. I believe that the 261 was introduced in 1954, and was used in larger trucks than a pickup till 1962 or 1963 when the 292 engine was introduced.

Another interesting tidbit... they were truck engines only in Chevrolets, but up here in Canada we used them in the big bodied Pontiacs. Our smaller bodied Pontiacs were rebadged Chevrolets(With trim and part differences} and used the 216/235s. The bigger bodied cars used the 261 as the base motor.

Aw, come on Charlie, you aren't really goin to screw up that beautiful stock '41 are ya? Well, if you are bent on a later model chevy engine(for more speed), why not a 350 or better yet a 454, they're still chevy so why not go all the way???

Just poken ya Charlie.

Hey, I thought you all said that the club looks the other way as long as a 6 cylinder in substituted for a 6 (216 or whatever). Somebody straighten me out on this subject.

Anyway, if I really wanted to soup it up, I'd probably stick in a 292. Apt to snap axles that way, though.

Why won't a 261 get a pass from the judges if a 235 will?

Besides I'm thinking down the road. The 41 Cabriolet is getting a stock 216. But, after I win all the awards out there, like senior VCCA, AACA, etc, who knows I might just want to have some fun at stoplights? He, He!

Charlie

BTW: I am going to stick the 41 Cab. together and either drive or trailer it to Flint. It will not likely be entered for judging but if it is, I hope there is a "rat-rod" category. I should do well. The rats have used most of the upholstery already and have set up a motel for other rodents traveling the neighborhood. I think I'll get a cage and bring some along.

I don't think a 235 or a 261 in a 41 thru a 1948 will get a "Pass" from a VCCA judge, it should get a 100 point deduction! a Canadian Pontiac engine would not be considered a Chevrolet engine...
Rat rod class? ......get real! just paint the wheels red and remove the bumpers and trim and spray the body with black primer and knock out all the windows?

Shame on you.No 235s allowed. It won't be a real 41 chevy.It's like going 12volt or using radial tires. To be a true antique it has to be ORGINAL.


p.s. Go for the big 6 engine. Just messing with you. That way you can drive it anywhere without worry. Then all you'll have to do is worry about that enclosed driveshaft. hehehe

If you are interested in having your car judged and it is suppossed to have a 216, most judges that I know can tell the difference between the 216 and a 235 or 261. Changing engines is a deal breaker when it comes to having your car judged when the particular engine that you put in the car was never offered from the factory. The wrong size engine for a 1941 is a 100 point deduction.
Now, if you are interested in just touring with the VCCA and not having your car judged, then not much will ever be said about having a 235 in a 1941.
I have driven my 1940 with an original 216 engine over 600 miles in one day at 60-65 mph. The car has the optional 3:73 rear end gear ratio. Keep the 216.
dtm

Goodness sakes!, some of us think of a 216 (3.5 liter)or a 235 (3.85 Liter) being a modern engine and anyone should be able to have either in a daily driver and not have to look back, if a 2.4 Liter rice rocket stops in front of you the bumper will make rice puddin' out of the poor thing!Just add some 205 or 215-7x-15 tires and a 3.55 or 3.70 rearend and GO!

If you wanted the really big six and you were willing to go the 292 route, wouldn't the 302 be the answer?

I thought the 302 was a V8. Am I wrong?

Is Toolman right about the 100 point reduction for anything but a 216 in a 41. I truly thought that I had read something about it being a pass. Hmmm.

How about the paint. Does it have to match the cowl plate #?

Does VCCA print the judging rules for all of us to see? Kindly direct me.
Thanks,
Charlie

BTW: As Alice said, "This is getting curiouser and courioser."

Hi Charlie,

Your paint must be a color that was available for your year and model and doesn't have to be your car's paint code.

I just read where the 302 GMC inline six was produced from 1952 to 1960 and is a 4" bore and 4" stroke engine.

As for the judging manual, there is copy on this site. I just looked up your question and the engine must be the same displacement as the original and gives this example.

For example: a 1948
Passenger car must have a 216 six cylinder with a
three-speed manual transmission. If it has a 1956 235
with a Powerglide, then it is incorrect. If a 1956 V-8 Bel
Air has a 327 or a 350, that is incorrect. It must have a
265. If a 1919 490 has a six cylinder, that is incorrect. If
it is an SS 396 and it has a 283, that is incorrect. The
engine should be visibly correct to the judge.

Roger

OK, I think I understand. Thanks for clearing this up. I think the 216 is easy to identify but there is little readily visible differences between the some 236 and some 261s.

Is there an increasing number of points off if you use a 235, 250, 261, 292 or 302? Seems that a 235 should only merit just a few points whereas a 302 should cost the owner a heap more. One is more flagrant violation than the other. Maybe all all engine swapping sins are the same. Just kidding.

Thanks again,
Charlie

Charlie,

Interesting discussion about all this. I'm not sure if you're just blowing in the wind (like you sometimes do), or if your questions are serious. I'm going to take a chance and presume you're serious.

I suspect your pass idea about putting a 235 in a 216 car is a confusion born out of hearing it's "ok" to put the wrong year 216 in a 216 car. Like a '48 216 in a '41 car is indeed OK per the judging rules.

(Edit: I still find that HARD to believe; but that's a whole nuther deal.)

Also, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish; but my advice would be to go no 'farther' than a 235. Presuming you aren't really serious about drag racing the car, I'd say put in an 848 head 235, a 3.55 PG rear end and leave it at that.

If you're going for real "comfort," or whatever you might call it, you could even consider a PG trans also.

Even with the PG, everything would look sorta original and probably wouldn't raise too many eyebrows. Certainly not like if you did go Camaro clip, 350 and so on. Unless you were getting judged, and then be ready to get the 100 pt deduct. Unless you used a 216 type 'round' valve cover and nobody noticed anything else.

Well, lots of ways to skin a cat.

Just my 2 cents, Charlie.....



Whatever you decide to do, good luck. Check out all your options thoroughly before taking up any wrenches. Be sure to talk with folks who have done it already.

Final thought, I'm excited to see the convertible, errrr cabriolet, in Flint next year.

Bill.

If the car has the correct engine displacement but the wrong year of manufacture, the car should receive a mandatory 15 point deduction. For example if a 1952 Powerglide Chevy that originally came with a 235 now has a 1954 235, it should have a 15 point deduction. ( Sometimes I suppose judges may not realize this change of year of manufacture ).
If you put a 261, 283, 292, 307, 327, 350, 396, 402, 427 or a 454 in a 1954 Chevy, the engine is the wrong engine displacement. With any of those wrong engines listed, the car should receive a mandatory 100 point deduction during the judging process.
There is a Blue cover 2008 VCCA Judging Manual that is 68 pages in length. Email your Area Director or any member of the Judging Committee to find out how to obtain a copy.
To the best of my knowledge, the 2008 Judging Manual is the latest edition.
dtm

Thanks for correcting a mis-statement I made in my previous post, Dave. I obviously thought I'd heard (actually I thought I'd heard it here in chat a year or so ago) that whole idea of any year 216 engine in a car that originally had a 216 was "OK."

Frankly, I'm pleased to hear there is a deduction for that situation. I understand (and agree with) the idea of the example you cite as being "only" a 15 pt deduct. Rather than the killer 100 pt deduct.

Again, thanks for straightening that out. Obviously it wouldn't be good for me to be spreading incorrect info about that issue.

Bill.

toolman - Per the 2008 judging manual, here is a quote....

A vehicle with the correct displacement but wrong year will receive a mandatory 30 point deduction.

Roger

OK, So it's 30 points off if you have a 42 216 in a 41. Is that correct?

Unless you look for casting numbers of head and block then, the only way to tell one 216 from another is by looking at the number and letters just aft of the distributor. Owing to their position, those numbers are hard for a judge to see, I suppose.

Do you gain 30 points by using a 1940 in a 1941? (Just kidding, there)

Let me straighten out my intentions some, I do not intend to put anything but a 1941 216 in the 41 (convertible or cabriolet, pick one). It is completely rebuilt and on the engine stand waiting for a repaint in the correct color.

I may put the 261 (came out of a school bus) in the 53 pickup (since it is all screwed up with extra trime anyway and open drive running gear.)

I am, however, somewhat inclined to change the 50 convertible out to a 235 with 3:55 gears. Undecided right now and the project is way down the road.

I have a another 41 engine that was rebuilt but a 50 or so head (with the larger spark plugs) put on it. Hate to tear it down but I have extra 41-48 heads so that won't be much of a problem. This leads to a judging question: If you have the right 216 block but the wrong 216 head, how many points should be deducted? (Grin, I ain't serious about the points. This can get right rediculos, I suppose. Still ...

After all this, I now realize that I have an extra 1948 used engine that I don't really need. Oh, well.

All this about points off gives me a hightened appreciation for our judges. They sure must be knowledgeable when doing their judging and may face some interesting situations. Especially from owners of judged cars. My hat is off to them.

Charlie

Charlie,
Why don't you go over to VCCA.org and read the VCCA judging manual then you won't have to wonder about the deduction, and keep beating this dead horse?

http://vcca.org/judging.htm

Charlie... you have a '50 convert?? You have any pictures? I've thought about swapping a 261 into mine as well...

Mr. Mack,
OK, I get the picture. Is that your horse?
Charlie

Brewter,
I'll see if I've got one.
Charlie

http://s753.photobucket.com/albums/xx180/CharlesMHill/?action=view&current=P1270010.jpghttp://s753.photobucket.com/albums/xx180/CharlesMHill/?action=view&current=P1270010.jpg

Just to show that I do have one. Even if it's not so pretty right now.
Charlie