VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION VCCA Judging Questions Judging questions from the NW meet.

Hi John and Judging world,

So we just finish area 3's NW Meet last Sunday and I came away with a couple of questions which hopefully someone can help answer.

1. I understand that there has been some rule changes for this year but we are still following the 2008 Judging manual? Is that correct?

2. As to the awards, from what I understand we are no longer giving out second and third place awards? What is the deal with this? Why are we only giving out a first in each class? Is this not more negative then positive?

3. Also how do we score a car in Judging if someone has put LED's in the tail lights? Is this negative in scoring or do we over look this since it is a safety item? The main reason for this question is I’m thinking about using them on my 34 which I’m getting ready for Flint next year.

Thanks,
Bruce

Hi Bruce - It was good to see you at the NW Meet and my own opinion on points taken away for led tail/brake lights would be, NO POINTS TAKEN OFF.

Can you even tell the LEDs are there behind the lens?

On one of the tours, I followed Steve's '31. He has them and for visibility you couldn't get lights any brighter than that. I'm ordering them for my '33 and if I ever judged your car I wouldn't take points off for them.

Roger

Going down the road you probably couldn't see a down draft Rochester model B carb or a 12 volt alternator and electronic ignition either, should it be NO POINTS deducted!.... just because it can't be seen?...come on guys.....

My feelings are for the safety factor and if it were up to me I would award points for them.

Roger

I think we are to the point with judging that if we want a high point vehicle and want to receive National Awards the vehicle should not be modified. If we want to modify for safety, in our opinion, or personal choice then we must accept the deduction for the modification. Each of us has that choice. I do not believe we can have it both ways.

Hello Bruce
I will make an attempt to clear up your questions

1. As far as the manual we are using the 2008 addition because there was a large supply and it was decided that we should exhaust that edition and have a new one ready for 2011. What are the specific rule changes you are questioning.

2. I am not really sure if I understand this question 100%. I do not know the specifics of what you are asking. We do not award a second or third if the car scores below 900. There really is no such thing as a second senior, if you give it some thought. If you do not earn a Senior First, the car is still on the Junior list. As far as it being more negative then positive we have to remember it is competitive and as much as we want to make everyone feel good we also have to be carefull about diluting the value of the award which is a problem we also face. This is part of the reason for the Driver Participation Class where we can offer that feel good aspect.

3. LED's...... sorry but it has not been considered for a safety item, at this point

Later,
John

At many nationally sanctioned meets, the local sponsoring Region awards second or even third place for Junior and sometimes Senior.

This is local option, and has never had any standing in the natioanlly recognized system or database. It is a "feel good" award that the local sponsoring club may choose to distribute.

On Page 32 of the 2008 Judging Manual, it states under SENIOR that:
In other words, it is possible to have vehicles score above 901 and be awarded 2nd or 3rd Senior.

Under JUNIOR on the top of page 32 of the 2008 Judging Manual is says:

[u]The 1st, 2nd and 3rd Junior Awards will be given to the three highest Junior Class vehicles that score above the minimum points for wach award level.[/u]

dtm

Dave that is the problem an award is issued for a second senior on a vehicle that still is a junior..... see my point, how can you be considered a senior anything with earning a senior first?

John

All judged vehicles start out in the Junior class. Once they achieve First Junior award they become Senior vehicles. When they achieve a First Senior they advance to Preservation Status. That being the case First, Second and Third have ranking significance in both Junior and Senior Class though Second & Third not nearly as significant as First.

Hey Guys,

Thanks to Roger for the input since he was one of the judging team members with me at the NW meet.

Thanks also to John, Don, Dave and Chip. This is just the discussion that I wanted to see, thank you all.

As to my post about the LED’s I can see Backroad’s point, but I’ve judged for many years (Since I was 17) and also remember that we don’t mark down for safety items like seatbelts. So I, like Roger would not mark down for having LED’s. Like Roger, I also followed Steve and one other guy that had the LED’s that Steve sells and you can not believe the difference. So I really think we need to review this for the next judging manual.

Dave, thanks for adding what the manual said about 1st, 2nd, and 3rd senior, I was at work during my lunch brake typing this and didn’t have my manual with me. So, I think my understanding is the same as Dave’s and maybe Chip’s and falls in line with Don. So this question looks to be still open for debate.

As to my first question, I think you answered it John and thank you. As to Question two, I forgot the word Senior in that question. As to the LED’s I think we should review it, I know for next year I will have lamps in my tail lights for the 34 like I have restored them, LED’s will come later.

Also John, the cars in question I don’t know the total points awarded, but I know that they both had made it to the Senior level, which would mean that they should have at least 900+ points in my book from Junior level, unless we found something really wrong that the group last year didn’t.

So lets put an example on the table:

Car #1 (1929 roadster) gets 976 points -> takes First Senior
Car #2 (1929 Coupe) gets 950 points -> No award given

From what I was told why the coupe didn’t get a second place was the rules had been changed this year.

Thanks for helping me understand to everyone.

Bruce

Chip,
You are not on the Senior List until you achieve a Senior First so the car is still considered a Junior, this is a common mistake.

I am on my way out the door for work more when I get home, this is not a debate or a test of knowledge just a question
John

John, With all due respect I believe Chipper is correct on this one. I was the Senior Awards Coordinator for the first ten years of the Senior Award program. It has always been confusing to some and the Preservation Award added to the confusion.

You are a Junior until you receive a 1st Junior Award. At that time you advance to the Senior and are on the Senior list. When you receive a 1st Senior you move into Preservation. Only the First Place winners advance.

From the judging manual:

"All vehicles classified as having Senior status will have won a 1st Junior at a Nationally Sanctioned Meet."

There seems to be a translation problem, this should mean that you are competing for a senior but not a senior yet. Senior status is to compete for a Senior as a FIRST JUNIOR Vehicle however you are a Junior until you get your Senior Oval. You are not on the Senior list as far as the Awards List is concerned. We are going to work on the manual to clarify these issues and I thank-you for pointing this out. Really think about it... how can you be a senior without the oval?

Jim all I can say is things have changed a lot since then, even the title is not Senior Awards Coordinator any longer. I agree there is some confusion when we introduced the preservation class.

Guys lighten up, for some reason if I did not know any better I would think you are trying to cause an argument, and it really is not called for.
John

So what happens the next judged show after you receive a 1st Junior, you still sign in as a 1st Junior until you advance to Senior class, on points? And in the event that you don't get enough points to advance to Senior class you will remain a 1st Junior?
Is that correct?

I don't know enough to cause an argument on judging, even though I have attended a judging school. I am just trying to learn....

Mr Mack, you are 100% correct. You sit at First Junior (after you have earned it) Until you earn a Senior First.
John

Ok, Thanks, John

Hi John,

Sorry I didn't get back to this post earlier, but Dave Sylvain was here all afternoon talking about cars and helping me with the 34.

Thanks for the input and how the Judging manual should be interpreted as to when your a junior or a senior. And like Mr. Mack said, I'm just trying to understand.

But I think I need to redirect this topic back to one of my original questions. Why do you say we don't have a second and third senior award when the manual talks about them on page 32? Again I’m just trying to understand how to interpret the manual right so I can be a more informed judge in the future.

Thank you for all your input and teaching us what you have worked on so hard for many years. I know it is a thankless job, but we all do them to keep the hobby going.

Bruce

Bruce,
The manual needs to be clarified and I know that, however it was brought up and made a ton of sense as to how can you earn a second or a third senior, when you are still a Junior First, you did not break out of the Junior level yet.

Now a vehicle must score at least 950 to earn a Senior First, the bar was raised because there was no competition as far as cars seeking the same award so many owners were not trying to make their car better, they did not have to.

There have been changes since the 2008 edition was printed.
John

Hey John,

OK, now I'm getting your point. So what the goal going forward is to have 1st, 2nd & 3rd Junior meaning that you made it to some points level which is required for 1st Junior (901 maybe?). Then to get to first Senior you need to meet the higher points requirement of 950 like you stated for first senior. But you would only have maybe one first senior, the high point car, unless you had two cars which scored above 975 each. Then you would have two cars which got a first senior. Or something like this.

So in my made up example, that is why we only had one wining 29 out of the two at the NW meet this year.

So really you could look at it as a four step process to getting your Senior oval. You just may not need to do some of the steps if you have a high point car.

Great, thanks for the help. Let me know if I’m getting it or not.

Looking forward to seeing you in a few months.

Bruce

Two comments:

1) The currently available Judging Manual (2008) is always available 7 by 24 at http://vcca.org/judging.htm

2) Here is a chart that I created in order to understand the 2010 changes that were made to the Junior judging "thresholds".




(yes, I saw the mispelling) :-)

I see all the confusion and comments that are generated by members "in the know".

You can imagine how my head is spinning, since I'm newer and "not in the know".

Bob

John,
I agree it is a translation or interpretation difference. You are talking about the "list" which is the vehicles that have retained enough points in judging to have achieved an award, e.g. First Junior to be on the "Junior List", First Senior to be on the "Senior List" or its first Preservation to be on the "Preservation List".

Some of us are talking about the judging classification of a vehicle. They all start out as Junior status or Junior Class. Once they achieve a First Junior they move to Senior status or Senior Class in judging and attempt to be awarded a First Senior in order to move to Preservation. Since I have never even seen the "list" but have judged on many occasions, I think about the status or class of the vehicle in judging and not what "list" they are on.

What list are the vehicles that have not received a First Junior on?

Bruce,
Let me weigh in on the LED light question. Accepting "safety" improvements is a very "slippery slope" particularly with the stated mission of the VCCA "preservation and restoration". Where do you stop accepting "modifications" in the name of safety? Seat belts, additional mirrors, turn signals, disc brakes, radial tires, larger bumpers, LED lights, stronger seats, head restraints, reinforced floors, shoulder belts, four point harness, 12 volt upgrade, air conditioning, automatic transmissions, cruise control, antilock brakes, anti-skid systems, power steering, better shocks, reinforced doors, moving gas tank to mid frame, ?????

My opinion of acceptable "safety" modifications surely is not exactly the same as yours and I am sure that there are others that differ from us. The "Gold Standard" in judging should be "as manufactured and delivered" without modifications. That is subject to less interpretation than allowing some modifications and not others. I can cite several cases that caused some really hurt feelings and even resulted in losing some good VCCA members.