VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1937-1945 Can't start 39 Deluxe

I still think that a compression test should be the next move. If you don't have squeeze nothing else matters..........

Randy and Old216,
I am planning to buy a compression tester Monday or Tuesday, fiest chance. I have already removed the rockers cover and saw that all of them are moving up and down as they should. I also strapped a spark plug to ground and verified the spark. It was very weak before I replaced the wires, cap, rotor, points, and condenser. Since the replacements it is a good spark. As for the triangle there was no letters UDC. I even bought a new high intensity light to better see in the timing hole. I will remove the rockers cover again and check the valves at number one as you suggested this coming week. I have a dumb question though..shouldn't both valves be closed when piston number one is on TDC for the combustion stroke? It sounds like a very strong possibility that the problem could have something to do with the valves. I will recheck the points to make sure they are just starting to open. I will also get a timing light and do the check you suggested Randy. I would like to wait until it at least fires up though. I have put enough money in to it that my wife is beginning to get that strange look when I tell her I am going to buy something at the auto parts store. Can you tell me what the reason for disconnecting the vacuum line is? I will do it, I just am wondering why this is done. Thanks for your help guys. Bob

Of course I don't know a lot about a 216 of the 1939 persusion the first one that I had once had #4 piston and rod missing and a piece of wooden fence post wrapped in a piece of a tow sack driven in the cylinder. It jumped around a lot at an idle but smoothed out at around 45. However, I have timed several of them with a timing light and the only thing I noticed when the vacuum line was disconnected at the carb was it had a rough idle, so I never disconnect the vacuum advance. Don't the vacuum advance kick in at a higher RPM than an idle?

MrMack, the vacuum does not start until the bottom orifice is uncovered in the carburetor. Some systems may be more sensitive to RPM and start of ported vacuum. Because of this it is recommended to disconnect the vacuum line to insure it has not produced any movement.

As a practical matter, I watch the movement of the distributor. If it doesn't move I know I am in the sweet spot.

(Hint: If using a 12-volt timing light on a 6-volt system, it is advisable, to use a battery pack that produces 12-volts as the power source.)

I went back to your initial post. I saw where you had replaced a lot of stuff but didn't mention that you had installed new spark plugs. Wires yes, plugs no. Did you? If not do so. Cleaning a defunct plug(s) won't do any good.

Here's a thought: It would seem, that if it's in time and you have sufficient compression and gas all coming together at one time, you then have created a critical mass and it has got to light off.

Make all the checks we have suggested.

Then, take out the number one spark plug (any one of the six will do) and ground it. Have someone crank it over to see if the plug is actually firing. If so screw it back in.

Then get that sucker outside where if it burns up it won't hurt nothing else. Use a 12 volt battery as Ray suggested with the timing light (it'll give you better compression) and dump a couple shot glasses of raw gas down the carburetor. Immediately try to start it. If it don't start then, you have something really wrong and what you've told us so far doesn't make any sense. Let us know what you discover.
Charlie

BTW: You have a lot of us scratching our heads on this one.

BTW2: IMPORTANT! Have a fire extinguisher and a water hose handy. The water hose is to wash your hands with and the fire extinguisher is in case you overlooked something nearby that may suffer from the heat that you really care about - a Fulton visor maybe. After all it's just a 39 and not some understandable keepsake such as a 41 SD Coupe. You know.

This is sounding a bit like jozeppi's trouble in the 1933-36 forum under "enough spark? 36". He just got his running. Sounds like part of the problem may have been valve clearances.

Dan

When checking that #1 is at TDC, both #1 valves are closed and #6 exhaust is closing and inlet opening (rocking), at this point the little ball should be in the window.
As an initial timing setting line up the ball, make sure the rotor is pointing to just before the #1 position, (late timing) disconnect the wire from coil to points and place a light globe in the circiut. Turn ign on (the globe should light) then rotate distributor housing reverse direction to rotor normal until the light JUST goes out and lightly lock the distributor. In the absence of a timing light this will be very close to correct timing. When the engine is running check with timing light and lock distributor properly.
If you have an ohms meter, disconnect the coil (the coil in circuit will give a false reading) and connect the meter across the points. When the meter just reads no circuit is the same as the light going out

1939Chevy1, I don't know whether the '39 still had an octane selector on the distributor. If it does and it is not set at "0" when you are trying to time the car, it will affect the timing either by retarding or advancing it depending on where the selector is set. If there isn't an octane selector on your distributor then obviously this will not be a consideration. I am just trying to help eliminate causes of your problem. Beamer

I'd take some brake cleaner and spray the flywheel to get all the grime off to find the marks. If you turn the flywheel and clean it as you go the marks will appear. All the tips are good ones but if you don't get it to fire up and run the fine adjustments have no meaning right now. Get it to run, then start the tuning, adjusting process.

41 Special Deluxe, I have not changed the plugs. I took them all out and inspected them, cleaned and re-gapped. The reason I did not replace them is twofold. They looked good (I know! Thats dumb!)and I they are Bosch Platinum. However, now I am thinking that I will follow your suggestion and replace them. They are Bosch Platinum WR9FP. Do you think maybe they are the wrong ones (too short) for a 216 engine?

Randy & Don, I bought a compression tester this morning. Can not do the check yet. I need to charge the battery back up first. I have already verified that I have good spark (at least on plug number one).

Tonyw, Right after I do the compression test I am going to check the valves. I'll look for both valves closed when number one is at TDC and number six exhaust just opening. At that time I will do a very close look into the timing hole for the ball. I think the last time I tried to find the ball the rotor was just past number one. I can't be sure anymore. I'll have to look at it again.

Wow! You guys have really come up with some great ideas. I have enough to do to keep me busy for a while! I'll get back to you all asap. Have to take my wife out of town this week for her ongoing medical problems so it will be slow going. Bob

If you can not locate the timing ball you can not and will not start the engine. It may be advisable to remove the flywheel pan under the car and get a good light. Once you find it mark the spot with white paint.
When you do locate the ball in the "hole" the two front valves (for #1 cylinder) both must be closed. That is the stems must be all the way up and a gap felt between the tip of the stem and the rocker arm. The ball can be in the hole and one valve slightly depressed.......if so turn the engine one more full reveloution and then you will know the engine will firs . Find the #1 cylinder's plug wire on the distributor cap. When the distributor is installed correctly and all the was down the rotor must be pointing at the #1 wire. There are 6 teeth on the distributor gear....so you have 6 choices. If the dist. doesn't drop all the way down turn the oil pump slightly with a long screw driver. Look in the opening with a light to get an ides so the slot in the oil pump matches uo the tang on the dist. shaft.

This isn't strictly technical but I am at the stage of life where bifocals are a neccessary. Additionally I have a pair of single lense glasses set up for using the computer. The focal distance is a little greater. I have found these glasses to be very valuable for jobs like using a timing light. They also allow me to do my very best work when MIG welding. This may not seem like much of a hint but it made a huge difference for me.

Chevgene, What a great idea! I am going to remove the flywheel pan today. I have a good light. I should I'll be able to find the timing ball then. When I do I'll put a little white paint before it and after it (as Randy told me to do in an earlier suggestion). Thanks for your help. I am still learning some of this stuff.

Beamer, I don't think it has an octane selector. At least I have not been able to find one.

Old216, I already wear bifocals and admit my eyes are not as good as they once were. But if the ball ever shows up I think I'll be able to see it. I can see the triangle ok and its only about 1/4 inch in size. I think that if I can get the flywheel cover off I will have a much larger area of the flywheel to see. I should be able to find it then. Thanks, Bob

My timing light has the old fashioned neon bulb powered entirely by the spark on #1. Because of this, the pulse is not as sharp as the electronic version and tends to blur the timing mark out to about 3/8". For this reason I would not make the mark any larger than necessary.

When looking at the valves you need #6 INLET to start opening and the exhaust nearly closed. There will be a short period when both are just open.
Tony

1939Chevy1, The octane selector would be very obvious if you had one. It is right on the base of the distributor and has a scale showing a zero and graduation marks on either side of that with a pointer that is adjustable to the graduations. Perhaps the '39 did not come with one. Beamer

39 CHEVY1...
I had a hard time finding the elusive "BALL" myself many years ago.
The" Ball" on the flywheel is pressed into a hole drilled into the flywheel.My 1938 was filled with crud and had rust over it. I turned and turned and would have bet it did not exist.
I found it...it looks like a "0" when the the space around it gets filled with crud. It don't stick out from the flywheel like me (and many others) pictured it.
Take off the flywheel cover,clean the flywheel,find the "o" and paint it with white paint Hang in there,You will get it... Best Of Luck To You

Some good news! I did the compression test. The readings were so low I felt nauseous, 30-60. I squirted some oil into the cylinders and they went up a little. But I noticed a change in the sound of the engine. I thought, what have I got to loose, and squirted more oil (1/2 oz.) into each cylinder. The engine turned over much easier and sounded like it should. Not going uuurrrrruuuugggghhhhh, uuurrrruuuugggghhhhh but urugghh, urugghh, urugghh!! I rechecked the compression and it was up in the 90-110 range. I got underneath and removed the flywheel cover and eventually found the elusive BALL and painted a little white above and below it. Got out from underneath and turned the engine over until the two valves were closed on cylinder one. Low and behold the ball with white paint was right in the window! It wouldn't fire but I am feeling much better. I had to quit because the temperature here in Florida gets hot early in the day and was up to 98 degrees. I was hot and tired. I am going to be back on it today. I am going to see if the points are opening at the correct (ball park)time. Hopefully today it will at least fire. Bob

That is good news! Now when you check the points with the pointer at the ball, make sure that the rotor is pointing to #1. When you start to have success, it will start to turn over faster. You will then know that the motor is helping the starter turn it over. Sometimes it will take a little tweaking of the timing to get it to go.

I dont like the sound of the compression readings you stated, (dry is very low) Below about 80psi most engines are very hard to start. With the oil bringing the compression up it may start, run and blow heaps of smoke at first but next start you may have to put more oil on the pistons to get enough compression.
Now that you have found the timing ball setting the timing will be much easier.
Tony

The white paint is a very good, old-fashioned way to see the ball. However, instead of painting above and below the ball, I think it would have been a better idea to paint the ball itself. As it is, once you have the car running, your white paint marks will be a rather wide blur and getting the timing set right on the ball will be somewhat of a gestimate. It is also a good idea to put a spot of white paint on the tip of the pointer. That helps see the pointer and ball when they are perfectly in alignment. Beamer

More Good News! Today I got the timing mark up and made sure the valves for number one piston were both closed. Took the distributor cap off to see the points and to my astonishment found the rotor pointing 180 degrees from number one wire. I relocated all the plug wires with number one directly across from the rotor. I squirted a little more oil into each cylinder just to make sure I had all the compression I could get. Turned on the key, pressed the starter and it started right up. Let it run for a while until it would idle and got out with it running to look at the engine. It was a beautiful sight all the rockers working. The valves were going up and down and a nice stream of oil was running into the head. It ran beautifully, no strange noises, no knocking, sounds like a brand new engine. I tried all the gears 1st, 2nd, 3rd, & rev. They all work and the clutch is nice and high from the floor. BTW no smoke from the exhaust either. All in all at this point it looks like I got a good car! I want to thank each and everyone of you who helped me through this. I would not have been able to do it with out your help. Proud to be a member of the VCCA. Bob

Congrats Bob! Great report.

Go Bob,now you can help others through this process. Glad you got it fired up, we all knew you could.

Sounds like your distributor was installed 180 degrees out.