VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1933-1936 enough spark? 36

I agree that these engines are simple. Fuel, spark,boom! That is assuming that everything else is in line, ( timing, etc. ) While I don't do It often, I have used a starter fluid. If you shoot some in to the carb and you spin It with 12 volts, It WILL start! If It doesn't you don't have spark, compression etc.
Richard

If the disributor is 180 Deg. out it will pop back through the carburetor when turning over.
You could dump about 2 Oz. of gas down the throat of the carb.....It it dosen't try to start then you will know the lack of gas is not the problem. If that causes it to be flooded the gas will evaporate after a few hours.I assume you have the choke closed and the accelerator open about 1/3 of the way. If the starterator is working and adjusted correctly this would occur naturally.
Don't be afraid to rotate the distributor an inch or so either way for a trial.

In looking at the photo of your distributor, the firing order is correct and so is the location of the wires on the distributor cap. Number one wire should be at about 5:30 on the cap and that's where you have it.

Thanks guys. I did try a little gas in the carb, with no help. Choke is closed. No starterator, as it was converted long ago to foot-operated starter button. Will play with the distributor once I have a new coil.

Will also try the starting fluid. PU Guy, thanks for the tip.

Everything I have seen posted is correct. I would still suggest
making sure the distributor is not 180 deg off this is a very
simple test. with the valve cover removed, slowly turn the
engine over and watch No.6 exhaust valve (The last valve in the
head) continue turning engine till No 6 exh valve opens and
then closes. When the valve just closes ant the intake valve
just begins to open No. 1 cyl is in top dead center compression
position, and the timing mark ball should be visible. remove
the dist cap, and the rotor should be directly under where No.1
wire is. The dist points should be just be at the point of braking when the dist shaft is turned clockwise. If these conditions are met, the engine is in time! Phil Lipton

Randy,
From the photo it appears the distributor is installed correctly and not 180 degrees off. The number 1 plug lead is approximately correct and since the distributor cap is keyed and can only go on the distributor one way.
I just compared my distributor position to yours in the photo and (with about 8 degrees of advance) my #1 distributor lead is about at the 5 o'clock position (or a hair earlier) and yours is closer to 5:30 or a bit later. Not a big difference but it might help. Bump up your advance and then you can fine tune it when it's running.

Thanks. Taking a day off tomorrow to work on this. Will check to see if timing mark is visible when No. 1 cylinder is at top dead center. If not, what is the remedy? Would that mean that the timing gears are not aligned? That's one thing that I had the machine shop do, and assumed it was correct.

Regarding the advance, I am starting at 0, per the manual. Probably won't make a lot of difference yet, but will advance a bit.

When the timing mark is in the center of the hole, #1 intake and exhaust valves must both be closed and the rotor pointing at the #1 spark plug (wire) terminal of the dist. cap.

I am not trying to hijack this thread, but It reminded me of something. I have some old (1936) spec sheets that show a Koilster reading, hot and cold, for a good coil. Does anyone know what these readings are or how to take them? Cold is 42-64, hot is 36-56. Seems too high to be ohm readings.
Richard

I am not sure but I believe that a Koilster may have something to do with setting an German aviation altimeter.....






just kidding that would be a
Kollsman window reading

Just guessing, but aren't those typical readings in ohms for secondary windings?

What's that saying? Houston, we have a problem. Sorry I'm a little slow with this guys, but it does appear that the timing is way off.

Per Phil's suggestion, I turned the engine by hand until the #6 exhaust valve opened and then closed. Continued to turn a little, and when the #6 intake valve just began to open, I verified that #1 cylinder was at TDC (straw in spark plug hole). At this point the timing mark was NOT visible, and the rotor pointed about to spark plug wire #4. I had to turn the crank about another 3/4 turn before the timing mark was visible.

Per Gene's suggestion, with timing mark visible, #1 exh valve is still slightly open. It closed in another 1/4 turn.

So at least I know what the problem is. Now, how do I correct it? I'm not sure if I want to know the answer, but I'll bet it involves pulling the harmonic balancer, timing cover and timing gears. As I said, this is one task I left to the machine shop, thinking they won't get it wrong. Live and learn...

I guess there is a lot of truth to the saying: "If you want a job done right, do It yourself". Well, as you said now you know what the problem Is. The only solution Is to re-time the cam correctly. There should be marks on the crank and cam gears to align. Yes, the front pulley and camshaft cover must be pulled. What takes the time Is taking off everything up front to get to the balancer.
Richard

If the machine shop did screw up the valve timing, then I would say they are not much of a machine shop.

I agree with The Dog. I might be a little concerned with their other work as well.
Richard

You may be right about the shop, but now I just have to deal with it. I'm certain I looked to see if the timing marks on the gears were aligned with one another. Is there any way that the gears could be aligned to each other and not be timed properly? Any instructions on how to proceed would be appreciated.

I remember that the balancer was a bear to get off. That's why I had the shop do it. It now has a new balancer, recently installed. Any advice how how to get it off?

The good part is that the body is still not completely assembled. No bumpers, no fenders. It will be relatively easy to pull the radiator and shroud back off and get to the front of the engine. Just want to make sure I do this right this time.

Absolutely! If they couldn't get a simple thing like the valve timing correct, then there is a good chance that there could be other issues with the engine as well...especially with the babbitt bearings and etc.

I would have the machine shop correct the problem since you paid them to do the engine, or you should get a partial refund if you have to fix the problem yourself.

If you feel that the timing gears are correct, there is one other thing to try to verify the timing: Remove all of the plugs and crank the engine over by hand. With your thumb on the number one spark plug hole when the compression blows your thumb off of the hole, move the crank just slightly until the pointer lines up with the timing mark. If there is no timing mark, go around again and do the same procedure. Once there, remove the distributor cap and check the position of the rotor. If the rotor is pointing to any cylinder other than number one, then you probably have the distributor out of time.

Just talked to the machine shop mechanic who did the work. He's offered to come to my house and check the timing. Very decent of him, I have to say. Will let you know what we find.

I would do that before tearing the front of the engine down. Hopefully it is just a matter of the distributor being out of time and not the valve train.

It's possible that the camshaft gear is mis-marked. I ran
into that with an after market gear. If you suspect that to
be the case, get another gear and compare the position of the timing mark relative to the keyway where the gear goes
on the camshaft. If they are different you found the problem.
When No 6 exh closes and No 1 valves are both closed the
timing ball should be visible and the crank in TDC compression. I can't believe the flywheel was not installed
correctly, I believe the bolt pattern will only align 1 way.
I am anxiously awaiting the results!

Joe
I am not sure how many positions the flywheel will fit but it maybe possible the flywheel is 1/4 turn off position on the crankshaft as you state with #6 valves rocking #1 piston at TDC so I doubt the cam timing is out.

It is also the possible the distributor is positioned incorrectly, with the oil pump driving off the base positioning the distributor can be tricky.

Tony

Tony,
I think you are right on! Phil's comments about a mismarked gear had me worried, but my mechanic came over last evening, and verified that our cam/crank alignment looked fine, and the valves were opening and closing as they should. Clearly, it's easier to do this more accurately with 2 people, especially one who knows more than me. I located my old compression tester and can verify the compression stroke TDC by myself now. Bottom line: at TDC on the compression stroke of cylinder #1, the timing mark on the flywheel is aligned.

HOWEVER, the distributor rotor was pointed at about spark plug wire #4. I thought the distributor only went in one way, but my mechanic showed me that it can slide in to mesh with the gear in an unpredictable way. It took a little trial and error, but we finally got it aligned so that at TDC on #1, the rotor points to #1. I don't know if it makes it any more difficult, but I "upgraded" the oil pump to a gear-driven type when I rebuilt the engine.

Engine actually turns over a bit more easily now, but so far no start. I suspect that I damaged the coil leaving it on the 12V battery for too long, and have a new one coming from the Filling Station this week. Hopefully, I can get the cap off the old one. I've read that this can be a bit frustrating. Further update when the coil is installed.

I doubt that the kind of oil pump could be the problem, as long as it pumps oil. do you have oil pressure showing when the engine is cranking? Did you pre oil the engine by turning the oil pump with a screwdriver blade in an electric drill, before you installed the distributor?

Randy, I have run into this and simply placed the sparkplug wire for #1 in the hole where the rotor was pointing to and then continued putting the wires (according to the fireing order) around the cap, this will give you a "quick fix" and allow you to get the car running without having to pull the distributor. Just FYI.
Now did you test the ignition for a spark? by clamping an extra spark plug to a bare spot on the engine with some vice grip pliers or a CEE clamp and observe the end of the sparkplug for a spark (gaped to 40 thousandths) while cranking the starter WITH THE KEY ON? to see if there was a good hot blue spark?
Charge the battery to full charge while you are waiting on parts!

Mr. Mack, There's a spark, but a pretty wimpy one. Definitely not blue. While waiting for a new coil, I have a new 12v battery with 890 cranking amps on slow charge. I think I'm close.