VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - GENERAL Mechanical - Engine, Trans, etc Transmission Noise?

The first time I drove my 1961 k20 on the road (today) I got lots of what I think is transmission noise. It only is heard while driving. With rear on jackstands, no noise. With clutch in, no noise. Loud and it appears to be coming from under my feet, mostly heard in 3rd and 4th gear. Not sure about 2nd. Any suggestion or ideas? As I just registered today, hopefully this is the correct forum. Thank you.

Simon
Firstly welcome to chatter.
I will ask a few more questions before trying to answer.
With rear on stands lightly apply brakes, this will load driveline.
While driving does noise change with sudden gas pedal change (noisey on the gas quiet off the gas).
Tony

Tonyw,
Thank you for the welcome.
The noise is there as long as the clutch is not in, brake or no brakes. Gas does affect it. I noticed today, in 2 wheel drive, it does not make the noise, but in 4 wheel drive (on the stands) it does. Very noticeable at 2000rpm. Front end? thank you

Transfer case and or the front differential or the CV joints on each wheel. If there is a chain inside the transfer case that could be the culprit. If it makes the noise just in 4 wheel drive..."DON"T DRIVE IT IN FOUR WHEEL DRIVE!"....!!Ha!

MrMack, thanks for the reply.
Right now the noise is unbearable at 2000rpm 2 or 4 wheel drive.
On the road, it makes the noise in both 2 and 4 wheel drive. On jack stands only in 4 wheel drive. As the noise is coming from the front, your suggestions of the differential or CV joints sound very possible. If so, which would you attack first? Thank you

Take the front driveshaft off and drive it in 2 wheel drive, that would tell you if the noise is in the differational or the wheels.

Have you drained the transfer case gear grease and the differential grease into a plastic drain container? use a magnet to see if there are any metal grindings in the grease. I usually drain each one into a 5 gallon pickle bucket, in a new vehicle,and then stir in a couple of gallons of diesel oil, let it sit for a couple of hours then pour the mixture into another bucket real slow,and most of the metal cuttings will be in the bottom of the bucket, a lot of fairly large pieces or a lot of powdered steel is not good news.

You know these forums are a good source of information and techniques. I would never think of telling some of this stuff unless someone asks a direct question. I hope we are of some help.

I did not realize it was 4WD so that does bring in a front diff and transfer case. As Mack suggested drop the front diff oil (it wont hurt to do the others as well) and give a magnet a swim. If the oil is a brown / milky, looks like metal flake paint or the magnet picks up much you will have found the problem.
The cv joints generally only "click" on turns under load so I would not worry about them just yet.
Tony

MrMack,
I like the idea of removing the front drive shaft, and will attempt to get to it today. My temp tags run out in 7 days. I need to drive it about 40 miles and back for a VIN check, but do not trust it to make it. As for the transfer case, what kind of oil should it be refilled with? Standard gear oil?

As for information, YES, very helpful. I have been a visitor finding much useful information on a number of occassions. In the past, I have owned a 1953 1/2 ton (1 driver that started as a Fred Flintsone and 2 parts trucks) and currently a 1948 Chevrolet Town Car. I seem to pick the basket cases and enjoy bringing them back to life (much to my wifes dismay). On this truck she is about ready to have them haul it away. I have had it for over 4 years, and just this summer gotten enough time to do some major work on it. It has been sitting in the front yard (no garage) all that time and been somewhat of an eyesore, no fenders, hood or bed. Now I finally get it on the road with tires and front windshield and such and hear this horrific noise. Well, time to ask people much more knowledgeable than myself.

Yes you have been helpful.
THANK YOU.

Tonyw,
Sorry I was not clearer about the 4X4 aspect.
I can not hear any clicking.
I will check all 3 cases.
thank you

MrMack,
I love your magnet trick, wonderful. Only problem is there is lots of powdered steel. I will pull off the cover and see if I can spot anything obvious and let you know what I see. As this stuff is somewhat out of my league, should I be looking for anything specific?
again thank you for your assistance.

If you are not familiar with transmission and transfer cases and differentials. Man, you can really cost your self some serious bucks. However if it happens to be a CV joint or a drive shaft problem you could luck out for 4 or 5 hundred bucks.

Look for chipped teeth, shafts that are loose, loose chain. Excess gear lash and noisy clanking when you turn the shafts forward and back.
Was there plenty of good clean gear grease in the case or was it thick as molasses and black in color?
I was a mechanic in a artillery battalion motor pool in the Marine Corps and sometimes we would be stumped by noisy gear boxes on 2 1/2 tons, Dodge 3/4 tons, and the 5 ton 6x6s, and when we could, rather than rebuild them we would swap them put and let the upper echelon shops rebuild them.

I have a 61 K10. Here is my guess. And it is a guess. The Rockwell Timken T221 transfer case is a stout unit but it is prone to leaking due to the seals failing over time. Gone unrepaired, the upper shaft will become unlubricated. The seal fails, the bearing fails and then comes shaft wear. I recommend a servicing of the transfer case if one has not been done as yet. You will need a gasket kit as well as a bearing and seal kit. The bearing and seal kits are on eBay and should run about 250 bucks. The gasket kit is a little tougher to find, but I believe that Drivetrain.com has them in stock. Should be about 20 bucks for that. The transfer case is covered in the 1961 4 wheel drive shop manual supplement and there also some online instructions for the RR of that case as well. While you're dropping the Tcase, spring for some urethane mounts for when you put it back in, and I'm betting you will be much happier for it. The alternative would be to obtain a replacement tcase. A rebuilt unit will be VERY expensive-say 2 grand plus. And a used unit may be no better than the one that you already have. If you do need some hard parts like gears and shafts, I think that drivetrain.com can get them pretty reasonably.

Here are some useful links
http://persh.org/images/65Pickup/T-221.pdf
http://persh.org/images/65Pickup/T221%5B1%5D.pdf
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-T...ck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item5ad25f5ec7
Drivetrain_parts.com not what I said above. And 260 not 250. This kit does NOT have gaskets despite the photo

MrMack,

It was like molasses and black in the front differential. Not good, huh?
I don't know, but I have a feeling I am very unlucky.
The temp up in CT is supposed to be in the lower 50's, so I should get a chance to check everything out.
I'll keep you posted.
thank you

K10,
Thanks for the info.
All I really know about this truck is that it came from out west and was registered as a farm truck and my wife is going to kill me.

I will have to check the oil, if any in the transfer case.

Do you ever get that sinking feeling?

I am way over my head. I have the 3 pickup manuals and a couple of old Chiltons and Motors also.
I dont, know if I need it yet, but those parts listed on ebay state 63-69, does that kit apply to my year as well?

way over my head


Most of this is going to have to wait until spring (no garage) to fix. I can acquire parts, $$$ and knowledge over the winter, hopefully.

I would prefer the rebuild path, then I would know.
Do you know what years, if I can find good used/rebuilt
unit(s) fit the 61 K20 of both the front differential and the transfer case? Or is it limited to 60-61? I had read somewhere that any unit up to early 70's were interchangeable.

thank you

Simon
I dont like your description of the front diff oil, if the cover is easy to R & R I would. With the cover off look for discolored or pitted gear and bearing faces
If you are not confident of your ability to do the overhaul take it complete to someone that is. No mechanic likes to be handed a cardboard box of loose parts to put together without seeing the assembled unit.
Tony

As long as it's a Timken T-221 Transfer case, you'll be all set. Rockwell bought them at some point, so they are also referred to as Rockwell T-221's as well. I am not sure what the front axle is on a K-20. My guess is that it's a Dana 60. But I'll do a little research and get back to you. If I was in your shoes, I'd follow Mr Mack's advise and take to a good local old school mechanic and have him check out the entire driveline for you. A couple grand and you'll be done vs. a couple grand in parts and then you guessing around for a while and THEN taking it to the mechanic!

Don't get too discouraged That shows that it will hold gear oil, what comes out of the old grease helps to know if it is needing a rebuild, seals bearings, etc., But i would think that if it was my truck I would do what I could, U joints external checks. Like removing the front drive shaft and driving it to see if the front differential is the source of part of the noise. Keep in mind that these older 4x4 setups were quite noisy when they were new. While the drive shaft is out put in new u joint kits , only if they are loose. If they are tight grease them if they have Zerks or plugs where you can screw in a Zerk, go easy on the pressure, I always use a small hand grease gun to grease driveline components. My 1976 full time 4 wheel drive surburban had places to use a needle tip on the grease gun for the u joints. It has a double u joint (not the correct name) and it needed to be hand greased every year. I found that out after I replaced the stuff in it after 70,000 miles on the odometer. That vehicle had a rough 50,000 miles of pulling a 10,000 pound vendors trailer. I overhauled the transmission (400Turbo Hydromatic) the 400 sbc engine and the transfer case. The Surburban wasn't needed as a daily driver. I pulled the wheels and hubs and replaced the wheel bearing seals and axle u joint kits, in my garage one winter in Woodward OK, during a really cold winter. My total cost was $1500 and I had the Chevrolet shop do the TH 400, after my son and I pulled the engine, transmission and driveline with a rented engine crane, put in HD clutches, and a rebuilt torque converter and had the bottom end and heads done in a local machine shop. I rebuilt the starter, Q-jet and distributor Electronic module, while waiting on parts for the engine and driveline. I didn't buy any parts until I saw exactly what I needed to replace. A shotgun approach to rebuilding these 4 wheel drives can be a lot more expensive. I had it back on the road in good shape in 2 months. I then put 200,000 more miles on it when I traded it in in 1995.

K10, the front axle is a spicer 44-5F, according to the manual, I suspect it is the original. Still has the little 44-5F tag on it. I have already located a "shop" that has been in business for over 30 years. I'll have to talk to them and see.
I will check them out after turkey day.
thank you and have a good weekend

tonyw,
I agree no mechanic wants to be 2nd choice and to fix my mistakes. I will check with the "shop" on Monday and see how they feel about the whole thing. The cover is an easy off and on so I will check, mostly because I am curious. And no the oil was not good but it was a wonderful suggestion by MrMack.
thank you

OK Simon. That is the same as my half ton. A Dana 44. (And a 1/2) I still want to point you in the direction of the transfer case however as that is a known trouble which causes the symptoms you are describing. It does sound as though the whole system needs a complete servicing however. So no effort will be wasted.

MrMack,
Discouraged, just a little.
I did pull the front drive shaft off and drove it around the block. Allowing for 'some' noise due to being a truck and the age, it was noisy, but not excessively so. Little of that high pitched whine that was the concern. Therefore the front differential is the problem. K10 mentioned the transfer case being with its own set of concerns, so I will check that out as well. I have on a previous truck, 53 chevy, put Patricks ring and pinion in it and must have been Very lucky as it was right the first time. That one and only attempt was over 15 years ago. I just do not know how much more complicated this would be. I have plenty of time weather permitting to do the work. I 'think' I am capable of most of the work. But as K10 stated a couple of grand in parts and guessing is not good.
thank you

tonyw,
I agree.
I will check out the transfer case because if it is not having problems or causing them, why neglect it until it does. I would rather be safe than sorry. Is the availability of parts fairly good, and do you know if all 'spicer 44' years take the same parts? I can find stuff for 62 and newer, less for 61.
thank you