VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - GENERAL Electrical - 6 volt Hot Starting

I guess I must be lucky I don't have any trouble starting my car cold, hot, or after sitting 20 - 30 minutes. After it sits for 20 minutes or so I usally just give it a half a pedal squirt of gas and she fires right up no choke. When it's cold just 1/2 choke.

Rich,
I don't know what parts were installed on your 1937 when the Starterator was removed. Could be the 1937 Master starter and linkage or the starter and linkage from a 1938 and up. If the parts are from 1938 and up (1938-48 cars and 1938-54 trucks) the starter likage contacts the acellerator linkage when you hit the starter and opens the carburetor about 1/3 of the way. So not toucing the gas pedal on those models dosen't help.
The eletric fuel pump switch they mention is a safty devise that shuts off the fuel pump if the car is up-side-down......I believe.

Gene,

I have no mechanical linkage for the starter at all, just a solonoid on the starter and a push button on the dash. The hole on the dash looks to have been professionally done, it is not just a round hole, but has two little ears cut out on the side. I have the correct push button for the hole, it may have beem done by a dealer. It works just fine.

The missing item in the fuel pump circuit is a pressure safety switch. I think it kills power to the electric fuel pump when the fuel usage is low and the line is at full pressure. Just a guess.

Rich

I'll add my two cents to this as I have been and still am plagued with this issue, I have a 1940 216 newly rebuilt and am completely happy with all performance except this Hot Starting issue, after being shut down for about 20 minutes I get real nervous upon re-start, generally I just keep the gas to the floor and it will start, but has to crank awhile, If anyone finds a cure, please clue the rest of us in......

Thanks,

Wes Marquis

Here is an experiment that you can try.
After turning off the engine pull hand throttle out about 1/3 of the way. This will allow the gas dripping into the intake to evaporate faster.....if that is what is causing the problem.
I would try it on my cars but don't have a problem.

I'm gonna jump in here Gene cuz I've been suffering from the same problem that a lot of other guys seem to have with percolation, in spite of trying almost everything conventional that I’ve tried or can think of.
I'll be going to shows 50 or 60 miles away both days this week end so I'll have a chance to get her good a warmed up and then sit a spell. I'll try propping the throttle wide open and see if it helps, (the return spring just pulls my throttle cable closed, probably shouldn’t have pulled it out and lubed it with white grease).
One thing I notice every time I shut her down is, if I sit and watch the carb (a W-1 in this case) after a few minutes I can see some fuel begin to weep from the throttle shaft boss in the base. Even though I've got the float set lower than the spec I believe the fuel begins to percolate after she's shut down and boils over dripping down onto the closed throttle plate, flooding the engine and a little bit of it of course seeps through the clearance between the shaft and throttle boss.
Someone suggested earlier cooling down with water right after shutting the engine off. Now I couldn’t find that in the operator’s manual for my 1950, 216 I must have skipped that page. I suppose one could carry around a couple of five gallon buckets of water and pour it over the manifold and base of the carb till the engine temp came down to about 100°. I’ve never been a big fan of pouring water over a hot engine though, always had the feeling that it was akin to dropping a hot glass dish into cold water you know!
Anyway, leaving the throttle open is a harmless test so I’ll try that a few times this weekend. By the way, I didn’t see that mentioned in the operators manual either?
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny,

I am going to be real interested to see how your experiement goes this weekend. I will have my pressure safety switch installed next week, and I am beginning to think that this may also help. I do know that when I added my electric fuel pump I had to retighten some of the fuel lines to stop one minor leak. I figured that the pressure had increased. It may also force fuel past the float valve as the engine is sitting after shut down. This fuel may evaporate after a couple of hours but be a problem if the time frame is short.

We shall see.

Rich

the pressure switch I'm familiar with has to do with oil pressure. no oil pressure, the pump won't run

They didn't have todays volatile fuel in 1950

From observing other members cars with this problem they all seem to have a lower cranking speed. The engine turning over slower + robbing the ignition of power may be part of the problem.

Thats correct, some cars had a switch the cut out the eletric fuel pump when the oil pressure quit. That was a new feature for the VEGA in 1971. In the later years the switch was also used to stop og pump in event of roll-over. The pump would then stop working and not flood the area with gas.
If your pump has a manual switch you probably have it switched on for staring or vapor lock reasons only.

Hey Gene, my 6v system is often mistaken for a 12v because it turns over so well. Everything that makes electrical contact from the battery to the light switch has been reconditioned so my lights are as bright as a 12v system. This is the result of establishing and maintaining good clean solid electrical connections.
I'm working on a friends 1950, 3100 that now starts first click over as it should, because I insisted we replace and clean to bare metal all the cables and connections. The tail and stoplights look pretty good but I think they could be brighter. He installed new head light bulbs but they are as dim as a candle. Checking the voltage at the bulb I get around 4v and all of the connections are clean and he has a new after market wiring harness. I'm telling him that he needs a new light switch, that the internal contacts are corroded and the rivets, which are the contacts, fasten the lugs to the phenolic board and are also a source of some of the resistance. I also said that while I was at it, I would also replace the dimmer because the current to the headlights flows thru it and it also is probably corroded after sitting outside for a couple of decades or more. He doesn't believe me in spite of me showing him that there is resistance across the switches, and doesn't want to spring for the $60 to replace the light switch or anything else that may have a contact in it.
DG

This switch is in the fuel line and would be influenced by pressure from the fuel pump only. It is mounted downstream of the fuel pump and power to the pump must go through this switch.

Rich

Gene,

This is the only fuel pump on the car. I removed the mechanical pump after problems with vapor lock. I haven't had a vapor lock since I put the electric pump on the car.

Rich

When I had a single barrel carb on my 216, it would percolate on hot days of driving. I did exactly as gene just suggested with the throttle being pulled. It works just as he said it would.

Denny I had that problem and replaced the Dimmer switch and the contact boards mounted up front of the radiator, that fixed the problem.

Yeah Mack, like I said, it very well could be either or both the light switch or the dimmer. If you mean the terminal strips on the inner skirt, they are new on both sides so we are really down to the two switches.

Now, I did have a chance to test out the “throttle block at shut down” this weekend. It does seem to help one part of the problem, at least I don’t have fuel wicking out the throttle shaft with it blocked open but I’ve still got a load in there when I start it up and it still takes her a minute or so to completely clear her throat.
Still looking for a good high top Rochester ”˜B’ core for a 216, taint having any luck there. Guess I just don’t know enough hot rodders, I’m sure there are dozens of them laying on the shelves where the Holly/Carter Webbers took their place.

DG

Up date 08/05/09:
Well last night I came home from a 25mile trip to a buddy's house and shut the old gal down and this time I wrapped several small wet polishing towels around the base of the carburetor. Lots of sizzling goin' on there didn't like the sound of that but, this is an experiment so if figured it I crack something then that's the price I'll have to pay!
Went out after about 45 minutes and she popped right off, didn't seem to be loaded up. Than's once, now after I try it a few more times we'll see if this is going to be a concistant result.
I did notice that the bowl (W-1) did get quite warm after sitting just a few minutes, NOS redish/brown Rochester Products insulator installed this summer. It appears that the heat is just radiating up from the head/manifolds and heating up the carburetor, causing the fuel to spill over into the carb throat (even with the float level a tad below the spec).
I'll give it a few more tries this week.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny, if your any good with Wood, try to make your self a wooden insulator, for under the base of the carb. Worked on my 79 Dodge Aspen with the slant sick.

Well test number two, went the same as test number one. Wrapped the carb base with wet towels, waited about an hour, she started up first click over, no flooding. That’s two out of two. Simple experiment but here are a couple of pics of exactly what I’m doing.
The portable cooler:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/115762902/large
The Carb with the cooler applied:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/115762880
The NOS RP insulator:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/115762956

Plastic is an excellent insulator; Bakelite is plastic, there for Bakelike makes an excellent insulator. Not only is it an excellent electrical insulator, it is also an excellent thermal insulator.
Yes I do work with wood, and do wood fibers absorb moisture, they sure do. Is water a good conductor of heat, sure it is. Therefore wood, would not make as good of a thermal insulator as Bakelite does.
It’s not that the heat is moving through the insulator to the carb by conduction; it is becoming more and more apparent that the carb is being heated by convection after the engine is shut down and there is no cooling air flowing.
I’m going to do some heat transfer tests, taking recordings with a Cole-Parmer Digi-Sense, Digital Thermometer. These will probably take a few days to get the recordings.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Ok, just got back from a 10 mile warm up starting with a warm engine and I took these numbers.
All readings are in F,
151° on top of radiator tank,
122° between fuel line and vacuum line above thermostat housing.
226° below carburetor insulator,
162° on studs,
140° above carburetor insulator on carburetor flange,
105° on carburetor bowl as soon as engine is shut down.
126° at various places on the bowl after the engine has sat for approximately 15 min.

Not cooling it down this time or blocking the throttle open and fuel is now dripping out of the throttle shaft. I’ll leave it sit for an hour now while I make my “big ol wife” some supper and make another run with carburetor cooling later.
DG

I remember seeing some engines that were equipped with a metal shield under the carburetor. Was sandwiched in with the insulator and spread out perhaps several inches around the carb. Kept the heat from raising straight up.
Don't remember what makes of cars had it. Also some cars had a heat shield over the fuel pump so as to direct the incoming air to blow over (onto) the pump.

Okey Dokey, just finished number three. Took the dog out for a 15 minute ride around town came back and wrapped the carb with the wet rags, checked the bowl several times and it never got over 95° waited 45minutes, unwrapped it and hit the starter, she catches first click over. That's three out of three times that it starts hot after sitting for some time.
My conclusion is the if you can keep the carb from getting hot it will not percolate and therefore it will not flood.
Now why this and every other 216 has this problem, is a mystery to me. My lines are run exactly as the factory lines are run, my carb is mounted exactly as it should be, the float is set just a tad low, the gaskets are all new and the mating surfaces are in pristine condition, all of the hold down screws are brand new and all of the threaded holes were chased with a bottom tap when I rebuilt the carb so the screws are not bottoming out. In other words there is nothing that should cause the carbs to dump fuel into the engine after shut down other than heat convection expanding the fuel in the float bowl.
DG
Gene, just read your reply, the burning question is, do any of your 216's have a heat shield under the carb or special deflector for the fuel pump??? This is a totally stock fuel system with the lines run just as the original ones were run. Any way I believe that all the testing that I've done here pretty much proves that the problem is not with the fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel lines or fuel filter. That leaves only the carburetor which I'm sure didn't have a heat shield under it from the factory.

My cars are all factory stock/correct. The gas in this area has been ethanol enriched for at least 15 years, All gas in Wisconsin is now Eth). I have used the gas from perhaps 20 states in the last 15 years.
The worst gas was the gasahol sold in Iowa in the early '80's...this was pre Ethanol. Probably was more than 10 percent.
I have never noticed any difference when using non-ethanol that was sold in western Wisconsin and other states at one time.
Try adding a quart of kerosene to about 1/4 tank of gas.

The problem is that the modern gasoline blends all have lower boiling points whether they have ethanol or not. It is all necessary to get the octane rating without breaking the bank in manufacturing cost. It is these "cracked" hydrocarbons that also oxidize much faster causing the intake valve sticking, brown "crap" in the fuel tanks, etc. Adding 10-15% diesel will help a bunch. Most places the pumps are close so it is not too tough to pump in gas and then calculate the amount of diesel to top it off. Adding MMO or ATF at a glug or two per tank will also help.

Denny, out of curiosity, what grade gas do you run? Perhaps the next grade up might help, Maybe it won't. Up here, many of our Amoco/BP's you can get midgrade for the same cost as regular.