VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION VCCA Judging Questions 1957 El Morocco

Could a 1957 4 dr HT Custom El Morocco be judged at a national meet?

hoppy

We never had that pop up, and it is a good question. Were they sold by Chevrolet to the public?
John

these pics are from Dick Clark's 57 Heaven in Branson




According to the display, the cars were taken from GM to the Allender Company, converted, and returned to the Chevrolet Division and sold thru their dealerships.





V

John-Yes these El Morocco Customs were offered for 2 years only, 1956-57 by GM Motor Company. Bob Segasture, one of the VCCA members of The Greater St. Louis Area Region 5 is the owner of a completely restored model.

hoppy
Director,Greater St. Louis Area Region

Providing there is some sort of "official paperwork" (something on GM stationary of copy of, that the owner would have to provide). A photo of a plauqe is not enough. I think an owner of one of these should have all of the documentation in order already. We clearly state that the car must be in "as delivered to the public from the dealer." The car would be in class S3 with the production 57 passenger cars. We did toy with having a special body or production class but installed for just these situations, but they never popped up so we decided to see how it will play out if one shows up. I knew there was one out there in the mid-west, I saw a photo last year in the AACA magazine of one at meet, and figured we would see it one day.

John

of course the plaque is the result of the author's research or conjecture. as with any limited edition type vehicle, documentation, documentation, documentation.

The ElMorocco had nothing to do with the Chevrolet Motor Division. These cars were purchased by an "out side" sorce and modified. Would or should be considered the same as any customized car.
True they were sold by some Chevrolet dealers but Chevrolet had nothing to do with them. Never mentioned in Chevrolet literature.etc.
The socalled Counry Club wood package in 1948 should be considered in the same way. The wood kit was never offered by Chevrolet or listed in any of the Chevrolet material. It was strictly and aftermarket item.
Another example would be the extended body "Air Port Limo" versions.

To expand a little on the aftermarket items that Gene was talking about, John mentioned above that for judging purposes "We clearly state that the car must be in as delivered to the public from the dealer." If that's the case then a car sold new from the dealer with aftermarket accessories installed by dealer would fit the "as delivered to the public" catagory. I always thought that under the VCCA judging rules the car had to be "as delivered from the factory". The VCCA judging manual states the following: "It is the owners’ understanding that when they decide to have their vehicles judged, that we, as club members, are comparing their vehicles to how the manufacturer delivered the vehicles to the dealer and to the public." I know that many VCCA members have been confused about this in the past, so officially, which is correct....as the car was delivered from the factory or as the car was delivered from the dealer?

"As delivered to the dealer and the public", is correct page 2 Judging Manual. The reason for the "and the public" is because we were presented with information (a newspaper ad) showing a dealer in the midwest selling new Chevrolets with Country Club Kits, so it was sold new like that to the public, through a dealer. What about Yenko's, Nickey Chevrolets, or Baldwin Motion? That is why the wording to the public was included. Again this applies to a very limited amount of vehicles. I have only seen one (country club) at a VCCA meet and it had a 235 in it so the car was out of it for that.

I really do not want to get into a debate over a vast array of subjects as far as wood kits and fender skirts. As far as the El Morocco goes I do not know enough about it to make an educated recomendation to the committee at this point. What Gene had stated is what I had heard but again I rather let the owner present the facts. We have to consider the fact that is was in the showroom of a dealer for sale new to the public. Was it warrentied? if so by whom? Is it pretty much the same as the above mentioned vehicles? Yenko and Baldwin changed body panels and drivetrains and sold the cars new, so based on our earlier decision the El Morocco looks like it would fall into that catagory, but I do not enough now.

I know Steve Scott saw one last year at the AACA Meet in IL. and we did speak about it. AACA recognizes it so we take their decision into consideration, we do follow pretty much the same basic judging format.

As far as the airport limos, they were ordered and sold new through dealerships. I have paperwork aquired from Major Chevrolet in NYC that was in a binder for those type of fleet sales. They even had a salesman dedicated to only sell those vehicles. They are no different than the extended top vans. They were sold new by a dealer and warrentied as a new Chevrolet, if they back it then it is theirs

We all have to agree that we would like to see it on the judging field

John Mahoney
VCCA National Judging Chair

Is something built for "Fleet Sales" tha same as the public?

Good question,
what do you think we should do if a member pulls up with a 59 restored airport limo? Tell him to go home? We do accept fire engines and school buses, and you can't get much further from the public than that. So based on that decision alone I would say the airport limo is a commercial vehicle.

I guess we need to rewrite some of the wording in the next edition. How about, "as delevered to the dealer, and offered to sale for use either by the public or *specific private or commercial use*

*owner made need to provide specific documentation

Regards
John Mahoney
VCCA National Judging Chair

Sounds good to me John. There is one dealer here in Dayton that is known for adding things to his vehicles that may or may not be Genuine Chevrolet. Might be the sound system, vinyl top,or paint stripe.They will probably be installed and in the show room before the purchaser ever sees the vehicle. This could get very sticky with the owner knowing it is just the way it was purchased new from a Chevrolet dealer. Now that we recognize all Chevrolets there will be more original owner vehicles showing up at meets.

At one time there was a special class for the 4 Cyl. cars with speedster bodies....I believe.
Geting back to the wood kit and ElMorroco. I think the judging commitee should make a decision on those.
My thoughts if it is not documented in CHEVROLET literature it is not legal. Still could be judged but HOW?
As far as the trucks with special bodies. In the past the factory items were judged and the condition of the special body only

Another question for future judging. What about the Monte Carlo Aerocoupe made in 1986, 87? The car was made as a Monte Carlo SS and then shipped to Cars and Concepts in Brighton MI.to be converted to the Aerocoupe. The cars were then shipped to the dealer and was for sale to the public. There were only 200 built in 1986, exactly the amount required to make them legal for NASCAR.

DD

Jim,
They still need documentation.

Gene,
Thanks for your thoughts, we did visit this a few years ago and felt the numbers are so small with the vehicles that this would apply to so no further clarification was needed. It really would be a sad situation if we told someone with rare Yenko Camaro or a Baldwin Motion Nova that his car was not legal. If someone goes through the effort to restore a wood kit car and has the documentation showing it was sold by the dealer do you think it is fair that we treat the situation the same as a 350 was installed? That owner is just going to find a place where the car is respected as a restored original car that it is, and bad mouthing us all of the way.

We have established that these cars were sold as new by the dealer, we have established that they were warrantied by Chevrolet/Dealer, we have established that new vehicle was delivered to a coach builder by Chevrolet, we also know that there are very few around, and we all would like to see them on our show field. We need to promote attendance with restored Chevrolets, not chase them away.

John Mahoney
National Judging Chair

Dan,
Perfect example, I remember seeing them new for sale in the showroom. It would not be a problem with the Aero coupe
John

I think Gene has a great point. We need to establish classes for such cars ahead of time. By doing so we will unintentionally invite these cars to participate. With the club now accepting ALL Chevrolets we need to be prepared ahead of time. Not wait until there is a need and possibly make the wrong decision.

Several years ago there was discussion about accept or not accept Speedsters. the decision was to not have a class for Speedsters. If you look at the to pre war F**D clubs these classes are growing by leaps and bounds with the under 30 year old group. And even more with the under 20 year old group.

Last week there was a Co-Vention of Pontiac Oakland Club and the GTO Club in my home town. They drew over 1000 cars. When I went to see the cars I was amazed at the number of Royal Pontiacs that were there. Royal was a Pontiac Dealer that did work simialar to Yanko and Baldwin Motion. The Royals were a highlight for the convention and much appreciated.

My point is if we are going to be THE ALL Chevrolet Club for everyone that we need to be prepared for ALL Chevrolets and not pick and choose what we will accept and not accept.

I recently saw a picture of a 1940 4 dR Convetible Sedan. How would we accept that at a National Meet? If it was a 1940 customer bodied car we should be prepared to accept it. How about a time period coach built body class?

Hess and Eisenhardt as one time custom built a 1969 Chevelle with a special high roof so that the owner would not have to remove her hat when she went to the county club for her weekly bridge game. Where would we put such a car ? With the judging form it could loose points for the body.

I say bring on the Yanko's - Cosworth - Baldwin Motion - El Morroco's - Coach Built and Speedsters. While this is a relatively small number of cars the free PR will will receive is priceless.

VCCA Son,
Maybe I missed it but I did not think Gene's point was to judge them at all. I do have plans to revisit this subject with the committee at the close of this years season. I share the same thoughts as you on this subject. Next year there will be a major re-write of the manual and we are considering combining classes and with the 975 cut-off it should not be a problem.
Regards,
John

Mine was more or less a question. If the mentioned items can not be backed up by factory documentation are they legal for judging or would points be deducted?

The ElMorroco had non GM parts grafted onto it. Now we know GM would have never approved selling a car like this.

There was a "raised roof" 1948 4 door at the last Aniversary Meet. I don't recall how that was handled.

The judging manual always stated documentation was necessary and not merely how the dealer sold the car and with what equipment.

The dealer I worked for installed Fulton Sun Visors, Innerliner oil filters, and Speaker out side mirrors......these items would be a no-no I am sure.

All of the above is just "food for thought".
There should be guide lines so if one of these cars shows up at a meet the chief judge has something to refer to.

Gene wrote, "There was a "raised roof" 1948 4 door at the last Aniversary Meet. I don't recall how that was handled."

The vehicle you speak of was in the HPOCF class at the 45th Anniversary Meet. I served on the Judging team for the HPOCF vehicles and that particular vehicle was very difficult for those of us on the team to Judge. I don't recall any documentation being offered. We did get John involved and I believe the vehicle was ultimately certified.

Oldie,
I had to look that one up, it did get certified, but certification is much more different than class judging. As I recall that car was pretty much all original with the exception of the roof and someone painting the engine a long time ago at that.
We will address this other issue in the off season
John