VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1916-1922 - Model 490 Cone Clutch Material

My recently acquired '18 has the original leather as does my Model T. My FB had leather also. They later two were relatively low mileage and not too grabby. Likely they still had some wave on the leather friction material. Have not driven the '18 enough to tell much except it is much more grabby. Have not tried to oil it yet so don't know if it will get any better. Also it has not be driven much in the past 20 years which can contribute to grabbing.

I think that a wave in the leather facing, just like the wave in the metal plate and later coil springs in the plate are the key to minimize chatter or grabbing. It limits the initial contact to only a small area. If total contact at once the clutch will be grabby.

There should be about 6? spring loaded expanders around the inside of the flywheel.These need adjusting to give the necessary "high" spots on the leather which will be compressed as the clutched is engaged,giving a smooth engagement of the cone clutch.

Go on, and use this column, specially made for our beloved 490s! They were the first serious attempt to fight the F**D dominance, and made GM a winner in the long run!

Back to the subject: I have heard stories of using sand to stop slippering in the old days, and using neat foot oil for oiling the leather.

You may try both, but the sand will certainly ruin the mechanical parts and fast, so this must only be used as pure emergency to get the car home.

The neat foot oil is the only recommended oil for this use, as far as I know. You get it in many shops selling horse and tour equipment. Excellent for smoothening old dried boots and to soften other leatherware. I managed to rescue an old longlegged pair of boots by using more than 1/2 gallon of that oil. Many young ladies have already asked me to buy them off my feet. I love them asking, and me refusing to sell.

I know for certain that you may change from leather to kevlar. This was done on a Minerva 1912 here in Norway in 2006 with good driving results. The asbestos must be too hard to be able to work, and illegal to find and use here in Norway.

Still I am trying to use the old original leather cone system, as I want my 490-driving to be as near to the original as possible. The cone leather clutch was in use at many car factories those days and for a lot of years. Both cheap and expensive cars were using that system.

I want that challenge too even if I am not a skilled mechanic and needs lots of help. Still it is fun to try and hopefully succeed. The longest drive we made last summer was 160 miles in one day. I slept like a baby during that night!

I often listen to a good friend who has driven his 490 for near to 50 years after restoration from a wreck. He insisted on mounting the new leather with the smooth side out, and so we did. But after last summer's driving I have decided to turn the leather inside out, with the rough part visible, as the clutch turned slippery up-hill after driving near to an hour.

Yesterday a Swedish friend discovered than there might be a difference in construction between my 1916 (and 1917) model and 1918-22 models. Driving a 16-17 with a warm engine, top oil level and up hills could more easily result in motor oil getting to the clutch leather. That will certainly be wrong type to use, give it much more soak than wanted and result in a slippery clutch.

Anyway, I will repeat my job from last winter and hope for a better drive this year. To be a better mechanic I also think I need that exercise.

To be able to get the right replacement parts and lots of information about this vital subject, you may contact my big helper: Bob Knaak, bobknaak@hotmail.com

Coming back with more a little later.

:vcca:

Have you inspected the thickness of the leather which is in your car at the moment.

Have someone depress the clutch pedal to withdraw the clutch out of the flywheel and inspect to see if the clutch leather expanders have worn through the leather in spots.

The other problem you may encounter , is that the clutch hub is worn where it fits into the flywheel bore and is allowing the cone clutch to float around too much.

The leather is approx 5 mm and new when mounted last year, so it should not be any trouble to reuse it, but we'll see when opening the system. I have a brand new leather if needed and 6 springs. The brass collar (is that the clutch hub?) is in very good condition and I also have a spare one NORS.

Starting the job tomorrow, I hope.

:vcca:

The repair manual calls for some neatsfoot oil if grabbing, and apply Fullers earth for slipping.

This assumes you have adjusted the expander's.

Solan,
The clutch hub is steel and has the brass U shaped collar running inbetween two of its faces.

It has the spring down the centre of it, held with a pin at the
rear end.

Jack
Give me a ring and I'll put you in touch with a mate who is relining cone clutches on pre 1910 Talbots
Chris

I have the neat foot oil but where do I get the Fullers earth? Any source or where to dig it?

Yesterday we managed to demount the clutch and discovered that the ends of the glued leather were not together. The rivet at one end had lost grip and the 5 cm loose end was angled backward. No wonder the clutch was slippery. The used leather was useless and therefore removed. We had a new leather cut, adjusted and holes drilled late yesterday. Will continue installing tomorrow and Friday, not glueing but only fasten with two more rivets near the ends.

After we checked yesterdays the steel/brass parts mentioned here they still are excellent on my car. The 6 springs looks in good working order and correct adjusted so we leave them as they are.

I have used Fuller's Earth for years on large construction machinery with friction brake bands and friction clutches. Back then in the 50,60, and 70s you could buy it at a hardware store or some large drugstores. I also used baby powder and talcum powder with the same resuts. :vcca:

Fullers Earth can be obtained at pet shops as it is used in fish tanks.

Hi CORetiree

Are your leathers glued to a circle, or are the ends fixed to the cone with rivets, like Solan describes and Bob Knaak recommends? If they are glued, are they glued end to end or are both ends slanted and overlapping?

I had new leathers done two years ago, with the ends slanted approximately two inches and then glued. I had the leather mounted with six rivets, as original, with one of the rivets through the middle of the joint (the two slanted and glued ends of the leather). I had the leather mounted with the flesh (rough) side in. I have heard different opinions of wich is the right to do. I didn't glue the leather to the cone. How are your leathers mounted?

Since I mounted the new leather I have been driving 1 300 kilometers (2 000 miles). It seems to work OK so far. I think the adjusting of the expanders is essential for better function.

One reason I should choose leather is that I don't know if kevlar or other materials will work together with the expanders.

This time we have mounted the leather, rough side out, end to end using rivets both there and elsewhere around the cone, and not using any glue. The leather will be oiled with neatfoot oil on a cloth and when done we hopwe this will bring a successful solution for long distance driving this season.

I will search for the Fullers earth and hope to find it here in Norway. Here is a link to a maker: http://www.fullersearth.com/about_fullers_earth.html

I have got the latest news about the kevlar vice versa the leather. Due to the light weight of the 490 and the small Ø of the cone the clutch will work well without changing to kevlar, as long as the original springs are changed to less stiff. Using neat foot oil is still mandatory, and I am searching for the Fuller's Earth. (Hope I will find it in pet shops). Leather approx 5 mm thick and mounted with the rough side out. Contact Bob Knaak to get a spare one: bobknaak@hotmail.com

As to kevlar this has already been used successfully on a Minerva 1912 here, and will be used this year on a Stutz 1919 and a Beckmann 1911. Those engines are much bigger than in the 490 (Ø of the cone is around 50 cm) so kevlar will be a better and safer solution for the big cars. The material does not require any kind of oil, and will work like a dry clutch.

An old guy selling at Hershey has gained a lot of good reports from T-F**D owners after they have bought and installed his kevlar solution in their cars.

So then we know the different possible solutions.

:vcca:

Water filtration systems sometimes use Fuller's Earth. Try a pool supply service. I once had a home with an in-ground pool and the pool filter used Fuller's Earth. Not sure how many pools you have in Norway.

It should be noted that the Model Ts used bands that are lined with friction material so the application is much different than the cone clutch used in Chevys.

If someone has a photo of a cone clutch I would like to see it

Forget what I said about Fullers Earth. It's Diatomaceous Earth that is used in filteration systems, not Fuller's Earth.

They are the same.

That stuff should be at any pool supply and I'm sure they have pools in Norway.

Hi CORetiree
Actually I don't know the type of glue used, I had a leather shop to cut, slant and glue the leather, according to my instructions. But I'll ask them and I'll be back.

Here is a vendor (T-F**D) offering Kevlar Transmission Bands:

Wearever Bands
Lou & Marge Iaccino
No. 4, Box 22
Hudson, NY 12534
Call (518) 828-5581
wearever@epix.net